(1 minute, 10 seconds into
the video above) the English describes
France's 18 early nuclear bomb tests. These took place at Reggane
and Ekker in the French Sahara between 1960 to 1966.
According to Lieutenant Colonel Warner D. Farr in a 1999 report to the USAF Counterproliferation Center "Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties." Furthermore, according to Farr, "There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had 'unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.'"[6]”
According to Lieutenant Colonel Warner D. Farr in a 1999 report to the USAF Counterproliferation Center "Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties." Furthermore, according to Farr, "There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had 'unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.'"[6]”
Australia has vast deserts for our own tests...one day.
Pete
17 comments:
Hi Pete,
So here you get a video to look at during your movement it's about Naval News visited the Damen shipyard in Vlissigen to learn about the SAAB DAMEN proposal for the Royal Netherlands Navy (Koninklijke Marine) Walrus-class submarine replacement program.
https://youtu.be/yl19TCI2LFM
/Kjell
Hi /Kjell
Thanks for https://youtu.be/yl19TCI2LFM
SAAB DAMEN look quite confident they may win the Walrus replacement contract.
Interesting that Dutch trade union participation is highlighted. Australia also rates trade union participation highly.
So Naval Group, for the Attack class Australian order that it has already won, and for the possible Dutch order, will have to be sure the trade unions are happy.
Regards
Pete
Hi /Kjell and others
Does Poland buying 2 second-hand Södermanland-class submarines from Sweden sound credible?
Reported 27/28 Nov 2019 at https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/11/27/poland-could-buy-swedish-submarines-to-update-its-kobben-class-fleet/
Cheers
Pete
Hi Pete,
I can say that Gunnar Wieslander, head of Saab business area Kockums, said at the annual Saab Kockums seminair about the Polish competition that their offer included Södermanland class submarines as a gap filler.
See Q&A 55:30 https://saab-seminar.creo.se/190830/saabs_annual_submarine_seminar_2019
/Kjell
Hi Pete,
A video about NEDS 2019: Walrus-class replacement program with Navantia, Naval Group, Saab, TKMS
https://youtu.be/celxSyp2R8E
/Kjell
I am wondering about the Israeli Dolphin 1 and Dolphin 2.
The official numbers say that Dolphin 1 has a maximum submerged speed of 20 knots, while the Dolphin 2 can reach 25 kts.
In ship construction there is a 'speed barrier' of 23 kts. If you design a ship that has to sail faster that this 23 kts. The needed engine power must be increased over-proportionally. For example: You have a ship that can sail at a max. speed of 21,5 kts with a total max. engine output at 10,8 MW. If we want to increase the maximum speed of this vessel to 26 its, we will need the double amount of MW's.
As far as I know, both have 3 MTU 396 SE 84 diesel engines with a total rating of 3,12 MW and the E-motor delivers 2,85 MW.
If we take a look at their Length / Diameter (L/D) ratio, which is a strong indicator of the hydrodynamic quality, we get this:
Dolphin 1: 57,30 m. 6,80 m. 8,43
Dolphin 2: 68.60 m. 6,80 m. 10,09
Argentinian TR-1700: 65,93 m. 8,36 m. 7,86 (Some sources state the diameter at 7,3 m., but that is the diameter of the pressure hull): 65,93 7,30 ( 9,03)
A L/D ratio of 7,86 is very close to the ideal value of 7. And the TR-1700 has a (very fast) submerged max. speed of 25 knots
Now we compare clear pictures of the Dolphin 2 found at this site with an accurate side view drawing:
intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/08/israels-deadliest-submarines-are-nearly-ready/
Side view drawing found at: https://free-clipart-pictures.com/download.html
Surprisingly, the length's and diameters of Dolphin 2 and TR-1700 do match with each other !
Did they take the design of the TR-1700 and modernized it with design elements of the Type 212 or even the Type 216, with it's diameter of 8,10 meter.
Here you can see the proposed Type 216: https://sadfor.savtera.org/index.php?topic=140.15
Israel has developed the Gabriel 1, 2, 4 and 5. But the Gabriel 5 is a totally different design than the Gabriel 1 or 2.
Israel has the Delilah cruise missile in at least 2 or maybe 3 generations. Generation 1 Delilah has exactly the same name as the 2nd generation Delilah. Both are totally different designs.
The Dolphin 1 is a version of the Type 212. I find it very hard to believe that the Dolphin 2 is just an 11,30 meter stretched version of the Dolphin 1.
Locum.
Let's try to put three MTU 16V 396 SE 84, with 63,4 liter total cylinder capacity, or 3x MTU 12V 4000 M70 48,7 liter in side-by-side configuration in a 6,30 meter or 6,80 meter wide hull:
Dimensions & weights:
16V 396: 3070 x 1530 x 1660 mm (= without gearbox), dry weight = 7.090 kg,
16V 396: 3995 x 1530 x 1850 mm, with gearbox,
12V 4000 M70: 3620 x 1520 x 1835 mm with gearbox, dry weight = 7.855 kg,
12V 4000 M70: ± 3120 x 1520 x 1835 mm, without gearbox.
In submarine's diesel-electric application we do not need the gearbox.
The total height of the submarine diesel engine will be roughly 30 cm / 1 ft higher than above mentioned heights for above water applications.
see: http://www.tognum.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/tognum/press/2011/MTU_Submarine_Charging_Unit_12V_4000.pdf
One engine is 1,52 m. / 5 ft wide. If we for example want a free space between the engines en the hull of let's say
0,60 m. / 2 ft.
Gives: 3 x 1.52 meter + (4x 0,6 meter) = 6,96 meter / 22 ft 10 inches.
Even in a TR-1700 7,30 meter wide pressure-hull, the engine room will be quite crammed.
Locum.
Thanks /Kjell [your November 28, 2019 at 7:09]
I'm back on board and will respond to all the comments readers have made over the last 10 days.
Of course the Södermanland gap filler for Poland may make a greal deal of sense if Poland were planning to ultimately choose the A26.
Presumably much equipment and procedures in the Södermanland would be carried over to the A26.
Regards
Pete
Hi /Kjell [your November 29, 2019 at 11:59 AM]
Thanks for the NEDS 2019 Youtube https://youtu.be/celxSyp2R8E "Walrus-class replacement program with Navantia, Naval Group, Saab [but not] TKMS (at the end of the youtube)
Interesting TKMS didn't display its entry. I assume that TKMS still cannot admit that it designed the hull of South Korea's 3,000 tonne KSS-III. see my 2015 suspicions https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/04/south-korean-submarines-3000-ton-kss.html
Hence displaying such a TKMS-South Korean hull for Dutch requirements would raise too many political questions.
Regards
Pete
Hi Locum, Nicky, GhalibKabir and "The (Greenies') Lawnmower"
I will respond to your comments tomorrow.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
It seems the Netherlands has problems to decide but according to Cabinet Postpones Choice of Submarine Builder Navantia is out.
"The final choice for the builder of the new submarines will now be taken in 2021, and they will have to enter service six years later."
/Kjell
Hi Locum [your December 4, 2019 at 10:55 PM and December 7, 2019 at 7:01 AM]
Thanks for the details and concepts of submarine speed and power requirements. Clearly you have an applied physics and/or marine engineering background.
I agree its likely TKMS built Dolpin subs use MTU 396s.
The crucial quality of all/most SSKs, like the Dolphins, is slow moving quietness (ie. stealth). Stealth (at 0 to 6 knots) is much more important than a noisy dash over 23 knots. A dash that may in any case exhaust the batteries within 3 hours, while still failing to outrun ASW surface ships, helicopters, new rotary wing UAVs, MPAs, and ongoing Mediterranean/Arabian Seas interception from undersea sensor arrays.
Thanks for http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/08/israels-deadliest-submarines-are-nearly-ready/ with its description and all those photos of a Dolphin II (aka 2) being built
The view of the proposed Type 216 on a TURKISH forum https://sadfor.savtera.org/index.php?topic=140.15 is interesting. Yes Turkey is too geographically close to Israel not to keep an eye on Israel and its Dolphins.
Whatever Israel calls/covernames its Dolphins' nuclear missiles
all those Ameican technicians who communicate(d) with Israel or retire(d) to Israel would have
put together an Israeli clone of a 650mm (outsized likely fast end run) TOMAHAWK cruise missile with a thermonuclear warhead with the range to hit Tehran.
Cheers
Pete
Hi /Kjell [at December 10, 2019 at 5:26 AM]
Thanks for "Cabinet Postpones Choice of Submarine Builder" at https://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/208088/dutch-cabinet-postpones-decision-on-new-submarines-to-2021.html
I think the Netherlands prudent decision to life extension overhaul its 4 Walrus subs by 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walrus-class_submarine#Upgrade_program has allowed this delay in decision making till 2021.
Dutch prudence also means the risky choice of (not even built for Spanish Navy) Navantia
S-20s is out.
The article https://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/208088/dutch-cabinet-postpones-decision-on-new-submarines-to-2021.html ties in closely with SubMatt's https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/10/dutch-navy-document-clarifies-dutch.html of October 11, 2019.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
It's now official that the Netherlands kicked out Navantia Dutch MoD Issues B-Letter For Walrus SSK Replacement: Naval Group, Saab & TKMS Shortlisted
/Kjell
Prudent Spanish and 'Cloggies' tight on the Loot (money).
The Scorpene is seen by the Spanish Armada as a relatively cheap export submarine and thus comes with modest capabilities. But the Spanish Navy was looking over the (far) horizon. They saw already a frustrated Russian Bear. The geo-poltical center of gravity was already gradually shifting from the North-Atlantic area to the Indian Ocean and West-Pacific. They saw a structual increase in maritime organized crime: human / weapon and drug trafficking, piracy, illegal fishing and terrorism. Terrorism can disrupt or de-stabilize nations and must be seen as a strategical threat. Climate change and large scale pollution too. Large groups of citizens don't feel they are represented and supported by their politicians, in a period that many things change very rapidly and fundamentally. Those 'orphans' are feeling afraid, insecure. They feel that an authoritarian leader will solve their problems. Growing nationalism and populism will change the relation between nations.
In this future vision the Armada foresaw that a flexible littoral AND expeditionairy sub, with ASW, ASuW, Land Attack and SOF / intel swing-role capabilities will be more effective in a world with more complex, more diverse and difficult to predict / unpredictable threats. Compared to the Scorpene they wanted an extremely quiet boat.
In 2002, the Staff Requirements were drawn up and in 2003 the S-80A was ordered
During the nineties and the beginning of the 21st century.
The Dutch submarine constructor RDM tried to sell their Moray export boat.
A simplyfied, modular and smaller Walrus offshoot. None export sales were made, RDM went broke in 2004. Nobody said: we need in 2015 a new sub like the S-80A concept. Everything stayed quiet, like a sneaking Walrus.
In 2003 the Dutch defense budget received severe and long-lasting cuts.
In 2013 / 2014, the Dutch started to think about a Walrus succesor. The Walrus gets an IP-W, stretching the service life to 2025.
In this period the then DoD secretary Hennis wanted a cooperation with Germany and Norway via the Type 212 CD. In January 2015, Damen Schelde Shipyards and Saab-Kockums announced another cooperation, which got the support from the Navy and the Dept. of Trade.
To complicate things further, there are other Dutch departments who want to increase the EU diplomatic ties and cooperation with France or Germany. The Treasury is very concerned about a second so called Walrus affair with his 65 % budget overrun.
The Dutch Navy wants a new sub of 2.900 ton, approx 70 till 74 meters long and a diameter of approx 8,40 meters. The 71 meters S-80A became the 80,81 meters S-80 Plus in order to restore the buoyancy. In 2018, the total S-80 Plus project costs stood at EUR 1 billion. The Dutch wanted a shortened version, integration of Mk 48 torpedo's, a changed internal lay-out with the Command Information Center moved forward , above the torpedo/weapon room, a domestically designed combat system and three diesel generator sets to maximize reliability. Off course, in a production run of 4 boats there will be a learning curve. But his will not offset the additional costs of the Dutch modifications.
Their submarine replacement currently stands at EUR 3,5 billion = 875 million per sub. This makes, that the S-80 Plus is North of their budget.
Adapted versions of the Shortfinned Barracuda and TKMS Type 216 are too expensive too.
And a Dutch evolved version of the to Australia offered Type 612 called Type 712 will face very probably the same fate.
Singapore ordered in 2013 two 2.200 tonne Type 218SG's and another two in 2017. The stated price per 218SG is EUR 800 million. The average price of a 2.400 tonnes Dolphin 2, without German subsidies is USD 1 billion.
So, the Dutch Navy will not get their high-end Walrus 2.0. But will be forced by politicians to a medium-class Dutch version of Type 212 CD, Type 214 or maybe, in my opinion unlikely, Type 218SG.
Locum.
Hi /Kjell [at December 14, 2019 at 2:55 AM]
Thanks for https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/12/dutch-mod-issues-b-letter-for-walrus-ssk-replacement-naval-group-saab-tkms-shortlisted/ - Navantia out as expected.
I wonder if Dutch patriotic reluctance NOT to be overpresssured by their large, powerful French and German neighbours might be a factor in an eventual choice of Sweden (ie Saab-Damen)?
Regards
Pete
Hi Locum
Thanks for your analysis at December 15, 2019 at 8:39 AM. All looks good.
I wouldn't underestimate Saab's chances as Sweden is in the EU (since 1995). Saab-Damen's pitch may promise the most for Dutch industry and Dutch UNIONS if Saab-Damen are to be believed.
Other political factors, perhaps favouring France, are here https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/10/dutch-navy-document-clarifies-dutch.html
Germany (TKMS) has Sold the most subs to the most customers since the 1970s, so TKMS has selling skills that also cannot be under-estimated.
Regards
Pete
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