Following “Naval
Group's 2nd Generation Fuel Cell AIP ready to be marketed"” of October
30, 2019 I deduce that India's DRDO AIP and Naval Group's new AIP are one and the
same.
The following is an update of Indian DRDO's progress on land testing a Fuel Cell AIP system (in part to retrofit on India's Naval Group (was DCNS) designed Kalvari class Scorpenes).
This just happens to be occurring at the same time as land testing of Naval Group's 2nd Generation Fuel Cell "AIP FC-2G" (in part to
retrofit on Scorpenes). Scorpenes have been sold by, what is now Naval Group, to Chile, Malaysia, Brazil and India.
See Xavier Vavasseur's, Naval News update article of 31 Oct 2019 at
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/10/indias-aip-system-gets-boost-with-operation-of-land-based-prototype/
"India’s AIP System Gets Boost With Operation Of Land-Based
Prototype"
"India's fuel cell-based Air Independent Propulsion
(AIP) system has crossed several milestones in technology maturity, the Defence
Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has announced.
The DRDO is an agency of the Government of India, charged
with the military’s research and development. India’s AIP system will
eventually be fitted aboard all Kalvari-class submarines...
...As previously reported, Naval Group India
engineers are already working with the DRDO for the integration of an Indian
designed [?] AIP module...."
PETE COMMENT
National and organizational pride and high budget justifications are such that every part of a submarine can be claimed as locally invented/indigenous if at all plausible.
Pete
10 comments:
I think the DRDO AIP is a bit different, it is a PAFC based 250 kW AIP and seems dissimilar to the reformer 250 kW one DCNS has put out, using Diesel and LOx. If DCNS has convinced the IN that FC2G is a better than MESMA and PAFC AIP, then what you have suggested is possible.
Diesel Reformer FC2G
https://www.naval-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/air-independant-propulsion-system-fuel-cell-2nd-generation.pdf
vs PAFC (the below is from NMRL, the guys who head such AIP projects for the IN)
http://ficci.in/events/22716/ISP/3-Dr.-M-Patri-NMRL.pdf
More verification might be necessary to conclude they are one and the same. I think they are not the same. DCNS wants India to buy F21 torpedoes, it own AIP and get maintenance contracts for the lifetime of the P75 class. seems like a trial balloon testing by DCNS through the media.
Pete
You are pretty wrong here.
http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/10/07/indian-navy-looks-forward-to-drdos-air-independent-propulsion-system-for-submarines/
http://forceindia.net/force-defexpo-11-14-april-2018/undersea-watch/
And the land version is operational since Nov 2018. This was announced because some high ranking naval officers visited there, and the targets navy set for Land based AIP prototypes are met.
That's why this so much fanfare.
Next is MAREEM prototype, marine based prototype, already attached link for that. (Force India link).
About national pride, indeed that was idiotic national pride which convinced decision makers to accept drdo proposal to develop an AIP system.
Instead of buying , MESMA off the shelf.
But this is not the case national pride , DRDO AIP is indeed Indian.
Thanks Arpit Kanodia and GhalibKabir
So am I right in saying:
DRDO has been working on a Methanol system to produce Hydrogen then combined with Oxygen in a land based (so far) DRDO Fuel Cell AIP apparatus. References http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/10/07/indian-navy-looks-forward-to-drdos-air-independent-propulsion-system-for-submarines/ and
http://forceindia.net/force-defexpo-11-14-april-2018/undersea-watch/
This is distinct from French Naval Group's Diesel Fuel system to produce Hydrogen then combined with Oxygen in a land based (so far) Naval Group Fuel Cell AIP apparatus. see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/11/naval-group-and-indias-drdo-working-on.html
Neither system has yet gone to sea let alone being tested on an operational submarine.
So given the difficulty of producing SUCCESSFUL AIP systems (eg. Russia and Spain have been unsuccessful so far) DRDO's system might still be replaced by the Naval Group system.
Or perhaps both the DRDO and Naval Group 2nd Generation AIP system may prove unsuccessful after the sea based testing trials.
A major hurdle will be fitting and retrofittiing AIP to India's Project 75 "Kalvari" class Scorpenes.
Regards
Pete
it will be done, if at all,during the first round of major refits in 2025, a 7-10 m 'plug' might be used to add back the AIP. Apparently heat issues of using PAFC still persist (it operates at 170-300 C) and this should hopefully get ironed out by the time the sea protoype MAREEM and the first operational AIP get ready to be fitted by 2025
Hi Pete
In AIP system by Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), DRDO, sodium tetrahydroborate [NaBH4] as hydrogen [H2] source is used. After the hydrogeneration, eventually by-product sodium metaborate [NaBO2] is expelled to sea. Borane compound including sodium metaborate is water pollutant and hazard substance[2], its direct discharge into water is illegal in Eu, Japan and USA.
If a problem occurs by discharge sodium metaborate, not only water pollution and hazard issue but also product liability of submarine builder will be pointed out. Issues caused by depleted uranium bullet should be remembered.
[1] “Indian Navy looks Forward To DRDO’s Air Independent Propulsion System For Submarines”, Saurav Jha, Delhi Defence Review, Oct/07/2017
http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/10/07/indian-navy-looks-forward-to-drdos-air-independent-propulsion-system-for-submarines/
Fig. 1: Overall scheme of NMRL’s AIP system. Source: NMRL
Hydrogen generates by the hydrogeneration [NaBH4+H2O=NaBO2+4H2]. After the reaction, byproduct [NaBO2] stores in “Spent liquor hold tank” and eventually spent liquor is expelled to sea.
[2] https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-metaborate
Regards
Hi GhalibKabir [November 4, 2019 at 9:09 AM]
Lets hope DRDO's AIP works in practice. I've heard too much heat in the MESMA AIP system is a problem with Pakistan's Agosta 90Bs.
So a "170-300 C" temperature range with the DRDO system may be a major, lasting, problem which may prompt India to adopt Naval Group's 2nd Generation Fuel Cell AIP.
Regards
Pete
Thanks Anonymous [at November 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM]
Looks like you have identified another major problem with DRDO's AIP.
That is the discharge from a submarine of polluting and hazardous sodium metaborate into the sea.
If sodium metaborate is that major then perhaps it could be detected by Pakistani and Chinese anti-submarine sensors configured to detect sodium metaborate
Regards
Pete
the test running of the DRDO AIP kinda proved the high temperature has been 'resolved'.
However, the marine test variant in a confined closed space will tell if the high temperature 'real time' operations are indeed well tolerated. if they are, then the DRDO AIP will take a huge leap to commercialisation. I am kinda hopeful because the land variant has run 14 days at a stretch successfully.
The NaBO2 thingy is frankly solvable if the tank can be emptied in a planned fashion or made to react with another chemical to make an unrelated effluent. It is certainly possible that enemy navies will try to develop sensors to 'sniff' trace amounts of NaBO2 if they think of it as the 'AIP's signature'. However, it is still a relatively 'down the list' issue with demonstration safe PAFC operations in excess of 150 C coming in at number one.
Hi GhalibKabir [at November 5, 2019 at 5:21 PM]
I'm playing devil's advocate on the DRDO AIP - though I hope it does eventually succeed.
Nothing like water-tank or better still, submarine operational testing. I suspect Japan used some old subs converted to "training" to part or fully test Lithium-ion batteries.
Hope that NaBO2 traces can be eliminated, disguised or that no viable Anti-sub NaBO2 "sniffers" can be developed.
Regards
Pete
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