Over the last week, with the excitement of Canada choosing the TKMS Type 212CD and SubMatts reaching 10 million page views Shawn and Gessler made some very interesting comments that deserve revisiting,
Because the comments are
aimed at a dedicated submarine audience, with considerable assumed knowledge, the comments are frequently without explanation or expansion of all
acronyms.
Two of the comments below articles were:
An interesting comment by Gessler of July 7, 2026
"Thanks for the great article [Indonesia starts Scorpene Evo production] Shawn!
It appears the Indonesians may have adopted the Japanese philosophy of Lithium-Ion Batteries (LIBs) being used to replace the AIP system, instead of supplementing it as on the German [TKMS] (and Indian) concepts of operation.
LIBs are particularly useful for high-speed bursts or any such relatively quick
discharge of energy, which is something most traditional AIPs (including
fuel-cell type) may not be capable of, to the same extent. Where the AIP excels
however is in 'drip charging' the system, extending underwater endurance for
increased on-station time and so on.
Using the two systems in conjunction (like on Type-212CD or India's upcoming
P-75I) would create a lot of operational flexibility for diesel-electric
submarines, but of course that comes at additional cost, weight (displacement)
& complexity as compared to a LIB-only configuration. So there are several
merits for going the LIB-only way unless the operating Navy has very specific
requirements that call for a LIB + AIP setup.
In case Indonesia decides to 'upgrade' their Scorpene Evos during one of their
scheduled refits a decade or so down the line, I wonder if they'd be interested
in DRDO's Fuel-Cell AIP that India has developed for their own Scorpenes, provided
the system is finally proven on an actual refitted Kalvari-class (Indian
Scorpene) boat by that point. France's Fuel Cell 2nd Generation (FC2G) AIP system is also an option, though it
too remains unproven on an actual submarine.
But I guess if Indonesia really wanted AIP, they'd have gone for it from the
start. Oh well, who knows what the future holds.
Cheers Gessler"
--------------------------
Shawn C replied July 8, 2026. "Hi Gessler! Apologies for the late response.
I took [Indonesian shipbuilder] PT PAL's president's claims as brand marketing and the usual "my
next boat is better than your current boat" one-upmanship. Note that
Singapore already has more submarines than Indonesia (4 in service, 1 working
up, 1 fitting out).
I know TKMS has been conducting R&D on LIB batteries since 2014, and
refitted a Type-212A in 2024 as a demonstrator - https://thedefensepost.com/2024/10/17/thyssenkrupp-battery-german-sub/
TKMS seems a few years behind the South Koreans and Japanese with LIB
technology, but these batteries are supposed to be swappable "without
design change" on the Type-209NG - https://www.tkmsgroup.com/submarines/submarine-classes/hdw-class-209
This implies that the Singaporean Invincible-class (Type-218SG) can switch to
LIB when they come in for maintenance.
I have been curious of LIB use in military warship power generation for some
years, especially as large cruise ships now use such systems to keep the lights
on, example: https://corvusenergy.com/products/corvus-dolphin-nxtgen-ess-energy
Singapore's upcoming Victory-class MRCV will use IFEP with diesel power
generation, but the use of LIB is not mentioned. LIB will act as a critical
backup in damage control, for its ability to smooth out surges and keep
high-energy critical systems, like AESA radar, powered."
5 comments:
Hi Pete,
I wanted to add a comment after an anonymous comment that AIP is a replacement for Nuclear Propulsion:
Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) are submarine propulsion systems that do not require atmospheric air to operate, they enable a conventional submarine to quietly operate underwater for an extended period of time, but cannot be compared to the two key benefits of nuclear propulsion- that of high speed for transit, and unlimited underwater range.
Nuclear submarines are not as quiet as conventional submarines because their nuclear reactor constantly radiates noise - a seawater cooling system is used to keep the reactor within normal operating temperatures.
While an SSN is able to sustain speeds of 30 knots of more to for high speed transit, in doing so, they become very noisy from propeller and flow noise, which makes them ‘deaf ‘- and unable to ‘hear’ passive sonar.
Three nuclear submarines have collided with sea mounts/pinnacles while traveling at high underwater speeds:
USS San Francisco (SSN-711) in 2005 - returned to service in 2008 using the bow section of a sister ship.
HMS Superb (S109) in 2008 - decommissioned.
USS Connecticut (SSN-22) in 2021 - should return to service in September 2026.
Sorry I've taken so long to reply Shawn as I'm not alerted in my email browser when you and Gessler comment. I'll need to check SubMatt's Comments list daily.
I totally agree with your first 3 paragraphs. Also Nuclear reactor development and unit purchase prices cost 10+ times more than AIP is another major difference.
Certainly quieter than an SSK snorting/running its diesels are some nuclear subs' ability to use natural circulation for the reactor's primary coolant instead of noisy mechanical pump(s). Not much public about that.
Yes - the faster SSNs go the faster they crash. They may have very weak, short range, active sonar for 3D imagery crash avoidance but going too fast foils it.
USN sacked the Commander and XO of USS Connecticut - but at least they didn't have to pay $100 millions in crash repairs.
Cheers Pete
I am the French ano
You misunderstand my point as for me AIP is not a substitute for N.Quite the opposite
I did propose that the tactical enveloppe of LiB mimic SSN
LiB and AIP are different boatsfor different needs
The successful co existence of these offers implies that needs are different .Geograhy appears to be the split main driver to over simplify
It would take a long post to
elaborate on these aspects
Concernîng noisy SSN,I disagree
Any boat at 20/30 knots is noisy
The issue is in asilent e mode with a pumpjet at very low power (where criticallity has to be maintained )
Highly restricted ,a very complex domain,but clear hints that a pump ,certainly a large one,may not be needed
Hi Pete
To maximize the performance of LIB in conventionally powered submarine, simply replacing conventional LAB with LIB is not sufficient.
The JMSDF (Japanese Navy) is refining its design in stages, as described below.
The JMSDF adopted the 1st-generation submarine LIB “SLH” on the 11th Soryu-class (Soryu Mk.2), and eliminated both AIP and LAB .
However, since the “SLH” had the same dimensions as conventional LAB, it created significant dead space within the battery compartment.[1]
Furthermore, because the diesel generators were not modified, the improvement in the indiscretion ratio was limited.
The same situation applied to the first 3 Taigei-class submarines (Taigei Mk.1).
But on the 4th Taigei-class (Taigei Mk.2), the adoption of a newly-developed diesel generator that significantly increased output (up to +50%) led to a substantial improvement in the indiscretion ratio.[2]
Going forward, the 11th Taigei (Taigei Mk.3) is expected to adopt the 2nd-generation submarine LIB “SLI”.[3]
This will improve not only the energy density of individual battery modules but also the packing density of battery modules within the battery compartment, leading to a significant improvement in total energy storage capacity.[1]
In the post-Taigei-class submarines, expected to enter service around 2034, the total ship design will be optimized, including the dimensions and shapes of the internal compartments and the propulsion motor.[4][5]
I find it fascinating to see what requirements countries that do not need large conventionally powered submarines to the same extent as Japan place on their own submarines, and in what direction they are evolving them.
[1]https://warp.ndl.go.jp/20250801/20250801001909/https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/research/ats2024/pdf_exhi_pos/p-13.pdf
[2]TRDI specification "New Snorkel Generator System (Part.2)" p.4
[3]https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/souhon/choutatsuyotei/r08_choutatsuyotei.xlsx #See row2459
[4]https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/research/ats2025/pdf_oral_matl/1112_1100_s13.pdf
[5]https://warp.ndl.go.jp/20250901/20250901000226/https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/research/ats2024/pdf_exhi_pos/p-18.pdf
Regards
wispywood2344
Hi wispywood2344 at 7/18/2026 7:07 PM
Thanks for your comments and links. I have published them as "Japanese LIB, Diesel & Post Taigei Program - TABLE" of July 17, 2026 at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2026/07/japanese-lib-diesel-post-taigei-program.html
I hope you agree with my changes?
Regards Pete
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