March 19, 2024

Orka-class Specifications Table: Dutch: Naval Group

After internet searching no current, precise, detailed, list of Naval Group (NG) specifications (specs) for the Orkas have been located. Instead I've drawn together (and sometimes inferred) specs from a variety of internet sources (see some links in the Table below). 

NG has limited the publication of the Orkas' projected specs as keeping the specs secret for as long as politically possible is standard in the submarine industry for National Security and Commercial-in-Confidence reasons. Detailed specs would reflect some of the Netherlands’s more secret needs. NG and the Netherlands will gradually release more spec details.

Now NG has won the Walrus replacement competition on the basis of the March 15, 2024 decision of the Dutch Council of Ministers. But the lower House of the Dutch Parliament, from debate beginning March 18, 2024, still needs to approve this decision. Best description of political situation is from the Netherland's Jaime Karremann the founder of Marineschips.nl.

Specs for preceding Walrus-class and Barracuda-class variants help. Also see Wikipedia's Orka website.


ORKA SPECIFICATIONS TABLE

Figures as at March 19, 2024
Class overview
Name:
Naval Group Orka-class for the Netherlands. "Variant chain" is Barracuda to Shortfin to Blacksword to Orka-class.
Operator:
Envisaged only for the Royal Netherlands Navy so far.
4 planned
Netherlands requires 2 commissioned (Orka and Zvaardvis) by 2034–2035. Then the 2 others (Barracuda and Tijgerhaai) before 2040.
To be built at NG's Cherbourg shipyard in France?
Preceded by:
Walrus class . 
Likely to be 100 HLES high-yield pressure hull steel, see US HY-100 and HY-130 . Also  see Submarine Matters article Table that uses a Japanese document.
Officers and Crew
Between 35 and 43 standard + 16 extra bunks for divers/special forces or intelligence intercept/linguist officers (depending on mission)
Speed/range
and
Endurance
14 knots (surfaced), 22 knots (submerged). 15,000 nm. All improvements over Walrus specs
Endurance est 70 days depending on fuel, food & crew exhaustion.
Typical mission profiles may be:
Transit + Ops Netherlands to Dutch Caribbean and return.
Transit + Ops Netherlands to Arabian Sea and return.
North Sea and Arctic Ocean against Russia.
Displacement:
3,300 tonnes (surfaced) so 3,700 tonnes (submerged) is estimated
Length
82 m  See Artwork with Specs below.
Diameter (Beam)
8.2 m  Artwork with Specs below.
Height
? meters (hull + fin/sail)
Pumpjet, Propeller
Acoustic stealth
Rubber/elastic mountings for moving and reverberating parts inside. Noise cancelers.
Capable of projecting
Unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs), Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)
Underwater decoys (against torpedoes and mobile mines)
On hull behind fin/sail.
Dry dock shelter for divers, diver delivery vehicles and large displacement UUVs (XLUUVs)
Weapons
6 × 533 mm (21.0 in) torpedo tubes. 30 heavyweight (HW) weapons. Maybe Walrus weapons will be transferred ie Mk 48 HWTs, Harpoon SSMs, even Tomahawk land attack SLCMs and Stonefish mines. Or maybe French weapons. This is a big area of uncertain debate?

Sensors
Mainly French NG-Thales UMS-3000 ? 
Combat System
A mixed US and French Combat System likely. Using a TTCWS interface. US Lockheed Martin and mainly French NG-Thales likely main intergrators. Combat system being the network of sensors, databases, consoles, optronic masts and weapons costing about one third of the upfront price of a submarine.
Max Depth
300+ meters
Exterior stealth
Propulsion:
 4 x MTU 16V 396 SE or 4 x MTU 12V 4000 diesels. Likely no AIP.
Jeumont Electric Motors (Jeumont now subsidiary of NG-Framatome). with 
4.5 to 5MW of power.
 Saft Lithium-ion batteries also see on the LIBs.
---


Artwork with Specs courtesy Naval Group (March 16, 2024) via (Mr) Jaime Karremann's website 
https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Wat-we-nu-weten-over-de-nieuwe-Nederlandse-onderzeeboten-160324.html

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Sounds right, we know little
From my understanding the manning is beetwween 35 and 52 (52 with about 10 Special Forces, this ability (DDS?)was specifically mentionned by the Du.MoD
Tomahawk missiles,US torpedoes and combat system likely,Harpoon likely, for dutch Exidsting assets commonalities
French drives and inverters , batteries, sensors, optronics, navigation, consoles (already in the SAAB proposal likely )

For info Jeumont is now a sub of NG and Framatome(they are a critical supplier of back up in N plants).They were the pionneer in PM DC motors and drives (high speed train)and are also a key supplier of Alstohm (train ,metro , tram).Majors investments are made in Jeumont following the Nuclear "renaissance".They compete with Siemens WW

Anonymous said...

These two articles gives additional details on the size of this submarine (officially called Black Sword and not Shortfin?), its weapons and differences with the nuclear Barracuda of French Navy.



https://meta-defense.fr/2024/03/15/blacksword-barracuda-naval-group/

https://lemarin.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/naval-group/les-barracuda-hollandais-plus-compacts-mais-mieux-armes-que-les-francais-cb915704-e2e2-11ee-b685-1479f5265e87

Pete2 said...

Thanks Anonymous's at 3/16/2024 8:44 PM and 3/16/2024 9:54 PM

I've amended the Table using your information.

Regards Pete

Anonymous said...

Goodday,

All this information comes from French sites.
The Dutch DoD keeps their mouth tightly closed.
The Dutch lower house can still block this deal.
So the Naval Group is still very active with their PR.
Thus take the specs with a grain of salt.

Dutch insiders regard this SMX 3.0 based proposal as a digital pie in the sky.
It's a clean sheet design, with not much COTS and MOTS components.
Many doubts about this French offer.

Proven delivery times from contract signing to commission of the first boat:
TKMS:......... 7 years.
Saab-Kockums:..9 years.
Naval Ggroup:.14 years.
Or like the Attack class, even later.

NG quotation price is 1 billion euro than the others. An offer below the costprice ?
Industrial participation. There are percentages floating around of 40 %, 15 %, and more realistically just approx 5 %. Because the industrial participation is in the agreements not written in stone. So the Naval Group can keep Dutch influence at design and construction as low as possible. Contracts for (integral) logistics support are seperate from the acquisition contract. Fear is that the logistics, maintenance, repair and overhaul will only fit French interests.
The detailed construction specifications will be decided in the coming (planned) three years. The propulsion configuration is still unclear. Dutch DoD already hints at French F21 torpedo and MdCN cruise missille. This design has no real drone / UAV integration.

In The Netherlands we say: a donkey does not the same stone twice.
Well, Australia hit the French submarine rock already. The Dutch apparently did not learn anything.

Locum,

Pete2 said...

Hi Locum at 3/18/2024 7:46 AM

Broad statements without any links are not convincing.

I suggest you provide some links.

Regards Pete

Gert said...

Hi Locum,

Do you have truth and fact based arguments to provide an impartial analysis ? Or are you only here to post French/Navalgroup bashing comments ?

Anonymous said...

Interesting picture and figures about Naval Group's submarine on Marinescheppen.nl :

https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg

Full article :
https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg

Anonymous said...

Hi all,

You can find the complete "D Letter" here :

https://open.overheid.nl/documenten/bc3a7fe9-e74c-4aaa-811d-9367466608ee/file

It explains why the french offer was chosen as the best offer, especially by the high level of performances of the submarine and its advanced design. And also Dutch industry participation.

Pete2 said...

Thanks Anonymous at 3/19/2024 8:54 AM

I have placed the Specs at
https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg int the Table.

Cheers Pete

Pete2 said...

Hi Anonymous at 3/19/2024 9:32 AM

Thanks for the 13 page "D Letter" Dutch Defense Advise to the Dutch Parliament in Dutch at
https://open.overheid.nl/documenten/bc3a7fe9-e74c-4aaa-811d-9367466608ee/file

A summary in English would be of course better!?

I see a pretty good but still lengthy summary of some issues at https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Wat-we-nu-weten-over-de-nieuwe-Nederlandse-onderzeeboten-160324.html and at https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Nederland-kiest-voor-Franse-boten-150324.html.

Regards Pete

Oleg7700 said...

https://www.telegraaf.nl/podcast/778424606/waarom-scheepsbouwer-damen-de-boot-heeft-gemist
It seems their worst fears are confirmed.(google)"It is the best price, just listen to the podcast https://www.telegraaf.nl/po... in which Jaime asked whether this is the best boat. That question was dodged and the mantra was repeated that this is the best boat for the best price. But.... not the best boat, that is now clear. We will get a French export boat that will look little like the Barracuda. That boat was simply used as a decoy, but we are getting a version of the SMX3.0, so a Scorpene+. That's it! Blacksword Barracuda and even the name for one of our boats, the name Barracuda, is just marketing. What we really get is an enlarged Scorpene. Just an average boat. This design is separate from the Barracuda and is actually just an export boat. There is a discussion about the pumpjet but it was never proposed for the SMX3.0 which was also proposed to India for their P75 program but rejected by India. This is clearly a B-class boat, especially given the small crew, this is not a boat that will operate from home for a long time. With such a small crew, this will lead to over-fatigue. Naval is now able to market this boat better as they have now been sold to the Netherlands. The purchase by a European country definitely offers marketing advantages."Etc,etc... Who won - not for me to judge. Apropos, 14.03.24, new section of the "Dakar"-class submarine was taken to the new TKMS-assembly hall. Regards...

Pete2 said...

Hi Oleg at 3/22/2024 1:23 AM

1. These are sad days for the Walrus replacement Losers. Including your TKMS.

I have no idea whether the 33 minute podcast you provide, which is in the DUTCH LANGUAGE,

supports your complaints that NG somehow cheated!?

If you can locate an English transcript I would be happy to discuss it.

2. Also. What does "Apropos, 14.03.24, new section of the "Dakar"-class submarine was taken to the new TKMS-assembly hall." mean specifically?

Regards Pete

Oleg7700 said...

These are the comments for the podcast: https://marineschepen.nl/ There's nothing to tell, really. Сurrently... I’m not the first year marineschepen-forum member, and they have a lot of questions and fears: – „panama” is quite possible, according to some "experts", not me... https://www.kielmonitor.de/webcam/panorama/ ZEITRAFFER VOM 14.03.2024 (!) 1:11- 1:19 (with a magnifying glass... (smiley)


Pete2 said...

Thanks Oleg at 3/22/2024 11:36 PM

https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Wat-we-nu-weten-over-de-nieuwe-Nederlandse-onderzeeboten-160324.html looks very useful :)

Cheers Pete