March 14, 2023

Australia buying 3-5 Virginias. Intentionally Unworkable?

Reports from various media outlets support my prediction, here and here that Australia will be buying UK designed nuclear attack submarines (now dubbed SSN-AUKUS) and will build portions of them in Adelaide, Australia.


But what I didn't predict is an Australian intention, real or politically imagined, that Australia will first buy from 3 to 5 Virginia's during the 2030s purportedly as  "submarine capability gap" fillers. I didn't predict Virginias due to all the problems and unlikelyhoods I detail below.

The $368 Billion (US or AU dollars?) over 30 years, quoted by the Govenment is a typical defence understatement. Australia operating two distinct SSN types may add A$100 Billion (especially in training, spare parts, basing and maintainence complications) to what I already calculated as a A$500 Billion Australian SSN program over 35 years (2023-2058). Those figures take into account inflation over those years, submarine operating costs and the cost of nuclear training literally thousands of technicians, engineers, scientists, teaching staff, submarine builders, emergency staff and, of course, a new generation of nuclear submariners.

Three to five Virginia SSNs, bought by Australia from US shipyards in the 2030s then Australian-UK production of Australian-UK-US designed SSN-AUKUS in the 2040s have been announced. This was by President Biden and Prime Ministers Sunak and Albanese in San Diego, US, on March 14, 2023 (Australian time).

But there are too many problems with a "quick solution" to buy Virginias.

A US Political Change of Heart?

A good intention to sell Australia Virginias in 10 or more years is a long time in AUKUS politics, where political continuity is essential, but unlikely. Biden will not be President in the 2030s.

Even before the 2030s there is uncertainty over Biden being re-elected in November 2024. Might a Republican President (at worst the alliance downgrader  Trump?) have different priorities, which might include bowing to already expressed USN pressure not to sell Virginias to Australia? 

Biden has simply made a promise he cannot possibly honour during his sitting presidential term.

The USN being a parent navy that is already reluctant to spare Virginia's for Australian use spells big problems down the line. US Navy Admirals and key US Congressmen have long said the US has too few submarines as essential priorities of the US's own sovereignty. Biden's, in re-election mode, statements on March 14, 2023 that he has conjured up 3 to 5 Virginias in 10 years time cannot re-imagine the reality that the experts of the USN already see. 

The problem of too little US submarine manufacturing capacity even for US Navy needs won't be allayed by the bizarre concept that Australia could fund, or send non-nuclear trained workers, for a new US production line for nuclear submarines. That would be akin to sending proverbial "coals to Newcastle" or car-workers to Japan. Short of a wartime escalation, the US and Australia simply have too few managers and workers to quickly produce an excess 3 to 5 Virginias. Sending nuclear novice Australian submariners to the USN for training might also be more of a hindrance than a help - given the USN always has too few training slots aboard its submarines.  

If Australia buys 3 completed submarines from the US this won't assist Adelaide in developing Australia deep maintenance facilities for a fleet as small as 3 Australian Virginias. The US instead already has a long backlog of nuclear subs that need deep maintenance and/or repairs. Australian Virginias are likely to languish at the back of the queue behind USN Virginias, Los Angeles and Seawolf SSNs and Ohio class SSBNs that need major work as essential components of the US's own sovereignty. 

Analysts have already reported it would take 15 years to train a whole Australian nuclear submarine crew including senior engineers and executive officers/commanders. Also a Virginia needs a vastly larger crew of 135 compared to a likely 100 in SSN-AUKUS (previously known as SSN(R)s) and only 58 in our present Collins subs. Even if we bought Virginia's in 2033 we could not majority crew them with Australians until 2038. This all points to years of reliance on US officers and crewman - something the USN wouldn't be happy about unless the USN remained de facto owners of "Australia's" Virginias.

The claim that it is a new policy that US Virginias annually visit Western Australia is misleading. US Virginia or Los Angeles SSNs or larger US SSGNs have been visiting Western Australia on average annually since 2005

Another concern is the irrationality of Australia operating US and UK designed SSNs simultaneously. It may well be that after Australia buys 5 Virginias it would make more sense to buy 3 additional Virginias to make up the complete and final fleet of 8. 

The alternative of building 3 UK SSN-AUKUS in Adelaide, to make up the 8, just doesn't make financial, training or operational sense. 

Early Virginias are an Intentionally Unworkable Non-Solution

In September 2021 the then Morrison Goverment promised all 8 nuclear subs would be built in Adelaide. South Australia and the Australia wide shipbuilding industry (consisiting of hundreds of Australian companies) accepted that promise with enthusiasm. But Albanese has reneged on that "will be built in Australia" promise as the Virginias will be US built.

++++++++++++++++

Flashback: Australian workers will miss out while Australia funds US workers to build the subs in the US. The Guardian reported September 25, 2022:

"The South Australian premier, Peter Malinauskas, has criticised a proposal for Australia to buy nuclear submarines directly from the US, saying it would “not be acceptable” for his state to miss out on promised submarine manufacturing jobs."

++++++++++++++++

Albanese has come up with a solution that USN and the Australian submarine building industry won't accept. "Build our submarines in Australia", from the Collins onwards, in the late 1970s, has been the essential requirement for our Australia-wide shipbuilding interests. 

Australian industry and South Australian State Government resistance to Australia buying already built Virginias from US shipyards will be such that Albanese can then honestly claim "Oh well! Then we'll need to wait for the UK designed SSN-AUKUS. They will be built in the 2040s." 

Therefore Australia's only real option is to wait until the UK, following its Dreadnought-class SSBN build (which will dominate UK resources until the late 2030s) is ready to build SSN-AUKUS in the UK and in Australia. For that we are talking much mid-2030s design work, then one or two SSN-AUKUS laid down in the the UK in about 2039 and maybe the first Australian one laid down in Adelaide in 2042. Commissioning of that first Australian SSN-AUKUS may be 2047. 

These are time spans so distant that the Albanese government cannot be held to account during the current Parliament and even the next. The Albanese government will be long gone before about 2035 when Australia will need to start tooling up for SSN-AUKUS production. 

20 comments:

Anonymous said...


Australia expected to buy up to 5 Virginia class submarines as part of AUKUS -sources

"Australia is expected to buy up to five U.S. Virginia class nuclear powered submarines in the 2030's as part of a landmark defense agreement between Washington, Canberra and London, four U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

The agreement, known as the AUKUS pact, will have multiple stages with at least one U.S. submarine visiting Australian ports in the coming years and end in the late 2030's with a new class of submarines being built with British designs and American technology, one of the officials said."

See:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/australia-expected-buy-up-5-virginia-class-submarines-part-aukus-sources-2023-03-08/

Anonymous said...

Building SSN(R)s after buying 5 Virginia class submarines outright does seem irrational. Would it make more sense to jointly operate a few Australia based Virginias with the US and maybe lease a few Virginias until the SSN(R)s arrive?

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous @Mar 9, 2023, 3:32:00 PM

Yes I've said in my comments above building [3] SSN(R)s in Adelaide after buying 5 Virginia class subs is "irrational." Building those 3 in Adelaide would make them as expensive as the US Columbia SSBNs that are to average US$8 Billion each.

Jointly operating and leasing operational subs doesn't work in the real world where Washington's more powerful US national interests would be a priority over little Australia's interests.

eg. What if Washington wants these joint-leased subs to attack Chinese mainland ports while Australia doesn't want to go to war against China?

It might also take 10 years to train Australian maintenace poeple and Aussie submariners to specifically operate on Virginias.

In what is already a hugely expensive process, having a second stream of maintainers and submariners to simultaneously, initially or to retrain on SSN(R)s would be too much for most great power navies let alone the limited manpower resources of the small-middle power RAN.

Regards Pete

Greg said...

I was confident that Australia would, with assistance, build all the subs it will sail and I never thought the US would give up any subs but when I heard the news I realized that the US is getting a great deal by having Australia crew five of its submarines. Now I wish the date would be moved up. I wonder if Australia will get subs from the batch that have the capability to launch hypersonic missiles.

Pete said...

Hi Greg

As I've now commented - see red writing in my article comments. Building Australian submarines in Australia has been a political essential since the beginning of the Collins planning, in the late 1970s.

Build in Australia was essentail for the Attack-class, 2016-2021, and still is. So 3 to 5 Virginias, almost definetly built in US shipyards, is not really an option for Australian industry or the (significantly) Labor SA Government.

Hypersonic missiles? The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Range_Hypersonic_Weapon navalised version, for the USN, is intended to fit in Virginia Block Vs, which will be current/modern Virginia's from the late 2020s through the to the 2040s.

The UK SSN(R), from the 2040s, is also meant to have VLS. Judging by the Astute's Beam-Diameter of 11.3m, the SSN(R) will like have a diameter of 12m, which will be ample to fit the navalised version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Range_Hypersonic_Weapon.

Regards Pete

Greg said...

I assume that when Australia builds its subs that the reactor and primary loop components will arrive completely assembled as a reactor compartment module from Britain and that would mean that the nuclear technology transferred to Australia would be limited. Australia's role in regards to nuclear would be final assembly in the shipyard and then operate the subs. Many years ago I participated in a refueling overhaul and refit of a SSN immediately after completing USN nuc training and performing the final assembly of a modular component would be a much more attractive proposition.

Pete said...

Hi Greg @Mar 10, 2023, 2:07:00 AM

Its good that you bring considerable real world submarine contruction experience to this Submarine Matters comments thread.

Natuarally Australia says it intends to buy 3 to 5 US Virginias which can only be bought whole, complete, from US shipyards:

- GD-EB at Groton, Connecticut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_Electric_Boat

and/or

- HII at Newport News, Virginia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Ingalls_Industries#Virginia-class_attack_submarines

Regarding the UK SSN(R) it is likely that to avoid hull and reactor/propulsion errors and cracks the whole aft sections (50% of each sub) will be built at BAE Systems Submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Submarines at Barrow-in-Furness, UK.

Then each aft section will be Heavy-Lift Shipped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy-lift_ship from Barrow-in-Furnes to Adelaide.

This half built in the UK (and Adelaide merely assembling UK fabricated parts) reality is particularly if Australia acquires ONLY 3 SSN(R)s, having bought 5 Virginias.

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous @Mar 10, 2023, 1:08:00 PM

Thanks for your very detailed comments.

A trait of all the submarine builders in the UK, US and Australia is that they persuade their politicians to make sure their submarines are built in their own country shipyards. Re-elections depend on it.

So Australia funding a third US Virginia production line is the LAST THING Australia's shipbuilding industry and the South Australian Government and Voters would allow the Aus Federal Government to do. South Australian voters would make sure the Federal Government in power LOST the next election - given South Australia is a crucial swing state.

Also the US already has a third production line equivalent for the Columbia-class SSBNs. There is only limited sub building talent available in the US however much (a very few) in Australia want to throw money at the US.

An additional problem with Australia buying Virginias is that the standard current model in the 2030s buying time is the Block V which heavily emphasises a heavy VLS missile warload - for land attack. Such VLS missiles are less useful for discretely sinking Chinese ships - the RAN's main aim.

Australia seeking to avoid this by buying older models (Blocks III or IV) is risky in that these relatively old subs may wear out before the UK SSN(R)s are available.

As you say Tuesday will be interesting - particularly on the exact wording and emphasis given to Australia's very risky, more expensive, two SSN type solution.

Also, if Biden agains says "that guy down under" because he forgot the name of the Australian PM, we'll know he's more senile than when he said it in 2021.

Its the 40-50 year olds of the USN who may "call the shots" in the crucial 2030s SSN buying decade. As with the F-22 the USN/Pentagon may persuade Washington's politicians that "our American high tech crown jewels" in the shape of the Virginias, cannot be exported to a foreign country, even Australia.

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Hi Arpit Kanodia @Mar 10, 2023, 10:00:00 PM

Thanks for the tweets from Saurav Jha at https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1634137097832415232

Re: "India is alright with Australia getting Virginia class SSNs". China being India's and Australia's mutual threat boils down to a compelling reason for India's change of policy.

India is entitled to its non-aligned/independent foreign/defence policies, however a proximity with Putin

If Putin steps up his neo-Stalinist expansionist aggression against countries bordering Russia, where Putin might increasingly might rely on Indian weapons system purchases from Russia, then this may have increasingly negative implications for India's relations with Western countries.

In the submarine realm:

- the likely Russian assistance to India in the expected Delta looking S5
- "India is likely to get 1-2 Russian [Akula] SSNs in the interim"
- Russian assistance to India in developing Akula looking Indian SSNs
- India using what are really variants of Russia's 190MWt ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK-650_reactor series ) reactors, and
- Indian use of Kalibr-Klub missile, S-400 SAMs

and many other big ticket defence purchases and assistance from Russia that are increasingly important economically for Russia.

Then a future, more aggressive US President, leading the Australian and Japanese members of the Quad may raise problems.

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Hi Gessler @Mar 10, 2023, 10:24:00 PM

It was a good photo-op when Australia's PM Albanese toured India's pride of the fleet, Indian built INS Vikrant, during his India visit.

Australia hosting the next MALABAR naval exercises is a real surprise.

Also "Albanese has used a landmark visit to...INS Vikrant to declare that India is a "top tier" defence partner and announce Indian forces will join the massive Talisman Sabre war games in Australia this year." https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/albanese-declares-india-as-top-tier-security-partner/102077116

Talisman Sabre, in Queensland, is mainly Aus-US armed forces, but also contingents from Japan and other allies take part. More from the 2021 Exercise https://www.defence.gov.au/exercises/talisman-sabre-21/faq-general

Regards Pete

Lee McCurtayne said...

We are in March 2023 and time is running out if the " Big Dust Up" is around 2025. We cant even give the Collins a rejuvenation before the proposed confrontation. No one is doing much about the Collins refurb and its really not even in the equation. OK what are we going to use if the collins falls by the wayside, as nausiating as it maybe?. Surely used Virginias in the pipeline is more palateable than playing our somewhat tired unready Collins. Albanese is trying to destress the China situation and possibly furnish Australia with more time. Really the only real way of doing that is a possible B-21 stationing here along with all the infrastructure. Aquisition of mobile long range missiles positioned in our north is an excellent "Deterrent" and has already been proposed by the American years ago. Time is what we need more than than anything, and if it is possible to get crews on the training curve, pronto, then what other choice do we have. The threat will eventuate well before 2030

Anonymous said...

After watching Biden and Albanese speak this morning the leaks and your analysis since September 2021 was right on the money Pete.

N

Greg said...

Australian sailors are already enrolled in USN nuclear power school!

The plan to first operate US subs and then subs designed in concert with Britain is optimal for the most important point, it makes the weapons available at the earliest date. Wars are won and perhaps deterred by giving the front line what is needed when it is needed. Australia having replacements as the Collins submarines retire is the best just-in-time logistics solution anyone could envision given current circumstances.

The hurdle presented to sailors when moving from one type to another is not worth considering especially since the AUKUS SSN design is intended to be more compatible with US subs. If anything, changing types will be a professional challenge that anyone in that position would appreciate. In the 90s, the US operated two classes of boomers and three classes of attack boats and transfers between types was inconsequential.

I can't wait to see the consequences of the political posturing about the Virginia subs that is coming from South Australia. My guess is that it won't be an item in the news roundup at the end of the week.

Anonymous said...

Pete

I believe at least 2 of the 3 Virginia’s are to be 2nd hand, not new. The option to go to 5 was if there is some unexpected delay in SSN(R), but the intention is just 3. This means the lifespan of at least 2 of the Virginia’s will be considerably shorter. So the expectation is for 8 new build SSN(R) in Adelaide with the last one somewhere around 2063-2065 (which lines up with the retirement of the new build Virginia).

GhalibKabir said...

If the virginias are upgraded, they can still be used for a good 2 decades potentially. To me two issues are important

1. Virginias and SSN(R) are likely to be interoperable enough and I think instead of doing the same mistake that the IAF and IA used to 'waiting for the perfect solution', it is important to first gain experience operating SSNs as they are vastly more sophisticated assets than anything the RAN might have operated till now.

2. SSNs are just one part of a larger puzzle of military solutions on the APAC geopolitical chessboard and are not some magic especially as the VLS are not some solution from heaven. Context is very important as most media reports read as if people have completely lost their heads over AUKUS as some sort of 'Thunderbolt of Zeus' from Mt Olympus...

If the PLAN expansion is anything to go by the SSNs are but a part of the solution involving XLUUVs, USVs, Big ASuW, ASW assets, Naval Air arm etc etc., for instance the RAN will need Area Defense SAM systems on its flotillas implying much bigger AAW ships etc...
(The IN with its MF STAR 2248, domestic LR-MFR and Barak LRSAM is just taking baby steps in that regard... it has been painful work in progress since 2006)...

RAN needs to make some serious choices soon and focus on sub induction instead of debating the role for ASC and pork barrel spending in SA.

ACT should get down to what is doable asap and not dawdle endlessly debating luxuries such as submarine choices.

PS: we can be sure the Chinese are already thinking few steps ahead in this game of 'Go' and planning a response to AUKUS SSNs... we shouldn't be playing tic tac toe instead.

Pete said...

Hi Lee McCurtayne @Mar 14, 2023, 12:13:00 AM

Yes, if the US chooses Australia to get involved, one hopes China delays its Taiwan conquest until RAN submariners are relatively safely in a Virginia, rather than trying our luck in a surface ship "sitting duck". Taiwan is too far for a slow vulnerable Collins to get involved.

Basing of late model B-2s, which is what the B-21s will really be, is hugely expensive and specialized affair. So there is only one B-2/B-21 base in the US with hardened hangars and stealth "skin" application facilities. Guam is a forward B-2 and other heavy bomber types, base. I think any B-21 basing in Australia would be very short term and largely symbolic.

Long-range missiles in hardened silos in central Australia (or nothern Woomera zone) to give the longest warning, would probably be the best, soonest delivery method. "Special" warheads would be a must.

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Thanks N

Cheers Pete

Pete said...

Hi Greg @Mar 14, 2023, 4:42:00 PM

Yes Virginias with a part RAN crew in 2034 and a full RAN crew in 2038 (making then truly, sovereign Australian) is about the fastest we can hope.

From now until 2034 Australia hosting some US SSNs is useful.

Our promise to pay $10s Billions as a premium on the US nuclear armed Insurance Policy may be the most effective, and unspoken, reality that will insure US protection.

With the UK being mainly a north Atlantic power (with India and China growing quickly in power in our region) and with no SSN-AUKUS commissioned this side of 2040 the UK offers far less. Shades of what Churchill could "offer" Australia in 1942...but UK offered more after WWII VE day.

As well as one or two Collins still operating up to the mid-2030s, large UUVs (another AUKUS project under this work area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS#Computer_and_cybertechnology ) will be useful in the submarine intelligence-gathering role and for smartmine-laying.

True that RAN submariners will be flexible in moving from Virginias to SSN-AUKUSs. This will be aided as they will be using the common US developed Combat System already on the Collins, on the Virginias, and on the future SSN-AUKUS.

Yes South Australia will be busy building Hunter-class future frigates until the mid 2030s at least. Also some Virginia maintenance facilities are likely at Osborne (noting Albo-SA agreements being made)

While other Virginia facilities will be at at Fleet Base West (from late 2020s) and maybe Port Kembla (2030s).

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous @Mar 14, 2023, 9:54:00 PM

"2nd hand" ie earlier model Virginia's suggest we'll be getting earlier models than the Virginia Block Vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine#Block_V which will be current models in the 2030s AND they'll likely be semi-SSGNs having a heavy VLS/VPM warload of 40 Tomahawks. Also Australia really isn't after SSGN-Block V missile capabilities.

With a "Nuclear core life estimated at 33 years." Australia getting Virginia Block Is (commissioned 2004-2008) may be risky proposition - as they may all time out by 2041,

which is likely before the first SSN-AUKUS is commission (the first likely to go to the UK RN for the UK experienced first of class testers).

So Australia is probably looking at getting Virginia Block IIs, IIIs or IVs. See all this here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine#Boats_in_class

Block IIIs and IVs "have two multipurpose Virginia Payload Tubes (VPT) replacing the dozen single purpose cruise missile launch tubes [that the Block IIs are restricted to]"

Hence the IIIs and IVs might be able to take the (probably larger than Tomahawks) hypersonic missiles the USN might supply in the 2030s.

So if I was a Aus negotiator I might bargain for 3 x IIIs and then, if need be, 2 x IVs.

If Australia bought 5 Virginias it is not set in stone that we might then build or buy 3 or more SSN-AUKUS. We might ultimately build Virginias at Osborne.

The continuous-build US has a far better record building subs on time, and to budget, than the spasmodic batch-build UK.

Regards Pete

Pete said...

Hi GhalibKabir @Mar 15, 2023, 3:19:00 PM

Future Aus Virginias being "upgraded" is a scary expensive, missed deadline prospect if they are like any other Aus and an Ally upgrades, any ship type and the F-35 experience?

And we are already obligated to help upgrade the continental US's submarine industrial base.

Yes Virginias and SSN(R) [now called SSN-AUKUS likely built in the 2040s] are indeed likely to be interoperable and we need the experience.

Australia will need to rely on the US to foot the bill for many of the anti-PLAN upgraded capabilities you speak of. This is why Aus is paying the US $10s Billions as a part premium on the US Nuclear and Conventional Alliance insurance policy.

Australia is building XLUUVs under this sub-heading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS#Computer_and_cybertechnology

Every country "pork barrel"s. If the Virginia purchase works out I think Aus should stick with the US rather than re-inventing the SSN purchase "wheel" with the UK's SSN-AUKUS.

Please also see my Mar 15, 2023, 10:06:00 PM reply to Anonymous above.

Regards Pete