February 18, 2021

Saab Offering 2 Types of Sub to the Dutch: L/D Ratios.

Following this article Locum on February 9 has provided some interesting comments which have prompted Pete to look into L/D ratios: a pretty complex, controversial topic.

Length of a submarine / Diameter of a sub = (L/D) ratio, a key measure. A L/D ratio of 7.0 may be good for a coastal (littoral brown water) submarine. A submarine with good oceanic (blue water) qualities ideally has a ratio around 10 up to 11.5. 

The Netherlands Navy and Defense Ministry want, a largish, around 2,900 tonne, tailor-made sub. But this is expensive. Such a sub would have range longer than 10,000nm miles at 10kn cruising speed for the shortest possible transit time. This would be good for missions from the Netherlands to the Dutch Caribbean (monitoring and/or special forces) or Netherlands through Mediterranean to the Middle East (electronic and ASW monitoring).

A lot of people, even some Dutch politicians, think that a Saab-Kockums A26 Oceanic Extended Range concept is the best contender for the Walrus replacement.

A. Saab-Kockums may be offering the Netherlands two designs. That is:

-  A26 Oceanic of 65m/ (maybe) 6.75m 2,000 tonnes (surfaced), 6,500nm at 10kn sub yielding a L/D ratio of 9.63. Its very close to standard Blekinge A26 dimensions. This makes it cheaper, hence of the type most of the (non-Navy/non-Defense Ministry) economic ministries want.

OR

- A26 Oceanic (Extended Range) An 80m long (diameter unknown lets say 7.8m) L/D of 10.26 3,000 tonne (surfaced) 10,000nm at 10kn. Around 3,300 tonnes (submerged). Greater weight alone makes it a more expensive choice, however its dimensions are similar to Kockums operational Collins sub. Its around the dimensions the Netherlands Navy wants. But that navy can then shoot lower, to 2,700 tonnes, and thus appear conciliatory.

B. Naval Group is offering versions of the Barracuda and Scorpene [Dimensions, hence L/D unknown, being kept Secret.]

C. TKMS is offering the Type 212CD E. [Dimensions, hence L/D unknown, being kept Secret?]

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Navantia was offering the S-80 Plus. [Though note “Navantia was not accepted as a bidder.” by the Netherlands’ future submarine selection panel.]

Drawing illustrates a submarine's L/D ratio, wherein Diameter (D) of Hull is a proportion of Length (L) of Hull. In this example L/D ratio is quite good 8.75 (where L = 8.75 D). See upper right corner of Drawing. (Drawing courtesy Google Images which Google located from this source).
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L/D ratio imposes hydrodynamic efficiency, but this ratio is also governed by the type of missions a particular nation's submarines performs.

Low L/D allows rapid turns (to clear the baffles) and rapid tactical changes in direction (good for dodging other subs, ship’s hulls and even torpedos). Low L/D also allows for easier steering around rocks and narrows and a more compact shape to fit in seafloor "holes" (eg. in the Mediterranean or Baltic Seas).

A higher ratio makes for more efficient oceanic-blue water travel (surfaced, snorting of fully submerged).

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Optimum L/D ?
I do not understand the optimum L/D
For an oceanic type of sub were distance and speed is critical L/D are more in the 11 to 12 area Hydro drag is proportional to the square of the beam and roughly to the square of the speed.Drag lead ultimately to noise and power needs
Conversely highL/D lead to extremely poor nautical behavior when surfaced (or close to )and restricted maneuvrability
Since WW2 all really "oceanic" starting with the revolutionnary XX1 type to the US Virginia , Los Angeles ,soviet Foxtrot , S80 or Scorpene or Barracuda are in this scheme :stay submerged , deep and fast. If you are defending surface assets you need to move as fast ie 20 knots ?

For a coastal sub maneuvrability in restricted space is critica;l , low speed on patrol (hence little drag..) for instance under AIP at 4 knots..close to the surface favor lower L/D
The soviet kilo class the typical coastal sub is at 7

Usually as in UK or japanesr subs the compromise is around 9 to 10 ,geography ? enveloppe of potential interventions?

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete,

I'm pretty sure that the previous Head of Saab Kockums Gunnar Wieslander has in some Q&A said that the 3 different models offered do have different diameters, a hint could be to measure in the picture above the text "Saab offers conventional submarines that address three market segments: Pelagic, Oceanic and Oceanic Extended Range. Saab’s submarine range includes larger and smaller submarines designed for an adapted variety of missions and requirements."

/Kjell

Anonymous said...

SAAB has detailed and proven data on Collins class (beam 7.8m) as well as Blekinge class (beam 6.4m).

Anonymous said...

Hi Peter,

I'm sure you will correct Anonymous about the Blekinge class beam as we have done it before, it's 6.75 m as can be seen in this link from FMV see bredd.

/Kjell

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous [your February 19, 2021 at 7:28 AM]

Yes L/D ratios are a complex issue. So I've done some L/D ratios calculations that indicate:

- Coastal subs have low ratios - less oceanic movement, more sitting on seafloor. Even Japan's latest Taigei has a low ratio, indicating it will sit more in the narrows between Japan's crescent of home islands and south to Okinawa and sit on Sea of Japan seafloor.

- Australian subs have higher ratios suggesting Oceanic

- Latest US and French SSNs very high ratios. Oceanic and their reactor outer water circulation not good for sitting on seafloor - sucking in seafloor debris?. UK Astutes have very low ratios, which I think suggests an overly large/tall reactor.

COASTAL

Yes coastal subs have lower L/D ratios.

Type 205s = 44.3m/4.59m = 9.65

Näcken-class = 44m/5.7m = 7.72

Type 212A 56m/6.8m = 8.24

OCEANIC

Latest Japanese Taigei? = 84m/9.1m = 9.23
suggests its more coastal

Type 209 = 64.4m/6.5m = 9.9

AUSTRALIAN OCEANIC

Oberon SSK 90m/8.1m = 11.11

Collins = 77.42m/7.8 = 9.93
much shorter than Oberon and Attack?

Attack class = 97m/8.8m = 11.02

SSNs

Virginia 115m/10m = 11.5

Barracuda 99.5m/8.8m = 11.3

UK Astute = 97m/11.3m = 8.58
(large/tall reactor?)

Pete said...

Hi /Kjell [your February 19, 2021 at 7:31 AM comment]

Thanks for the tip. I enlarged https://www.saab.com/products/naval/submarines to the extent possible and measured:

- A26 Oceanic 143mm/25mm = 5.72

- A26 Oceanic 186mm/26mm = 7.15

- A26 Oceanic Extended Range = 230mm/30mm = 7.6

So I think there is distortion somewhere in the document prepation. But the increasing high ratios fairly reflect moving from Coastal to Oceanic.

There must be a PhD Thesis proposal somewhere in looking at L/D ratios and then theorizing real world missions! :)

Pete

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous [at February 19, 2021 at 8:00 AM]

"Where you claim SAAB has detailed and proven data on Collins class (beam 7.8m)" Yes 7.8m is confirmed by the actual user, the RAN, right sidebar at https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-collins .

However, regarding "as well as Blekinge class (beam 6.4m)." this appears to be old and/or incorrect information.

See the current FMV document https://www.fmv.se/projekt/ubat-a26/ that /Kjell has provided, which, when translated from Swedish, indicates "Width: 6.75 m"

Regards

Pete

Pete said...

Hi /Kjell [at February 19, 2021 at 4:48 PM]

Thanks for the current FMV document https://www.fmv.se/projekt/ubat-a26/ that when translated from Swedish, indicates "Width: 6.75 m"

Indeed corrected above.

A problem for Saab-Kockums is that English Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blekinge-class_submarine at the right sidebar states: "Beam: 6.4 m (21 ft 0 in)[3]"

Now footnote [3] is "A26 Submarine type A26" (PDF). Kockums. Archived from the original (PDF) on 6 June 2011. Retrieved 2 March 2010." is a "Page Not Found".

However [3] also gives a link to https://web.archive.org/web/20110606140015/http://www.kockums.se/PageFiles/736/A26_Datasheet.pdf entitled "Kockums Submarine type A26: Next generation submarine system for the littorals"

which, when scrolling down to its second page gives "Beam 6.4 m"
________________

Now, I know that the current FMV figure "6.75 m" is correct but Kockums need to change the English Wikipedia entry at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blekinge-class_submarine right sidebar.

This would bring it into line with Swedish Wikipedia https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blekinge-klass which at right sidebar states "Bredd 6,75 meter"

Regards

Pete