In early October
2019 Anonymous kindly supplied further useful comments and links on the Netherlands’
Walrus Replacement Program (competition). Submarine Matters interest in Dutch submarine affairs goes all the way back to 2015 when "Kevin" provided useful insights.
Anonymous continues - Spain’s
Navantia (marketing the S-80 Plus submarine) has been definitely
excluded from the Walrus Replacement Program, because Navantia continuously
committed serious and foolish design errors [1, 2].
COMPARISON
- a large TKMS Type 212CD with such technologies
as Fuel Cell AIP = FC-AIP of the Type 212A
in a broader beam Type 216-like submarine
in a broader beam Type 216-like submarine
and
- a large SAAB-DAMEN modified A26, with such technologies as a Stirling engine AIP, in a wider
Collins-like hull of broader beam [3].
A
large Type 212CD can be compared with a large SAAB-DAMEN A26 against criteria (1) - (10) below:
(1) Efficiency: 212CD’s AIP greater
than SAAB-DAMEN A26’s
FC
(which is an electrochemical system) is superior to the Stirling engine (a heat
engine) in efficiency .
(2) Diving depth of AIP: Type 212CD
greater than SAAB-DAMEN A26
Metal
hydride FC (non-CO2 reforming type) generates water and is not affected by
diving depth. The efficiency of the Stirling engine is reduced with an increase
in diving depth because of increased exhaust back pressure (max. operation
depth = ca.200m). Actual operation of the Stirling seems to be considerably
shallower than 200m.
(3) Safety: the SAAB-DAMEN A26 is safer
than the Type 212CD
The
Stirling engine has greater safety than metal hydride FC [which releases
flammable-explosive pure hydrogen].
(4) Availability
of Fuel (Hydrogen and diesel): SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type 212CD
This
might be a Netherlands’ specific requirement [4, 5]. As the mission of a Walrus-class submarine is sometimes
quite long (max. 3 month), reloading of fuel is required in remote areas [eg. the
Dutch Caribbean, and Middle East. For Metal hydride FC, availability of
hydrogen in remote areas seems to be difficult [6]. In comparison availability of diesel for a Stirling engine is
no problem.
(5) Reliability of hull: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type 212CD
A
base model of a Type 216 (which would strongly influence a large Type 212CD if
required by the Netherlands) does not exist. Meanwhile a large SAAB-DAMEN A26
would presumably be based on the Collins-class which does exist and with proven
hull and performance.
(6) Output of diesel: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type 212CD
The
Type 212CD and a large SAAB-DAMEN A26 would be equiped with two and three MTU
diesels respectively. The three MTUs-system of SAAB-DAMEN complements lower performance of Stirling engine.
(7) Job creation and
technological contribution in Netherlands: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type
212CD
(8) Business
situation of builder: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type 212CD
There
is a rumor that of the parent company (Thyssen Krupp) will eventually sell TKMS.
(9) Product quality of builder: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to Type 212CD
TKMS
was heavily criticized on bad quality – see [7, 8 below].
(10) Appropriateness for mission in hot
and remoted area: SAAB-DAMEN A26 superior to
Type 212CD
The
inappropriateness of the TKMS 212A in hot and remote sea areas has been reported
in the Netherlands [9 below]. These
issues should be resolved in the tender of WRES. In the case of SAAB-DAME,
experience of Collins-class in hot and remoted area is expected to be used.
ANONYMOUS CONCLUDES
On the basis of criteria (1) - (10) a large SAAB-DAMEN modified A26
appears to be superior to a large Type 212CD for the Walrus Replacement Program
(competition).
REFERENCES
[1] “£2 billion Spanish navy submarine
will sink to bottom of sea”, Fiona Govan, May/22/2013, The Telegraph, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10073951/2-billion-Spanish-navy-submarine-will-sink-to-bottom-of-sea.html
“A
new submarine commissioned by the Spanish navy at a cost of 2.2 billion euros
(£1.9billion) has been discovered to contain a serious design flaw – it is too
heavy and will sink like a stone.”
[2] “Spain's new submarine 'too big
for its dock'”, BBC, July/18/2018 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44871788
“The
S-80 boat was redesigned at great expense after an earlier mistake meant it had
problems floating, and it was lengthened to correct the issue.”
[3] The beams of the Type 212A (6.8m),
Type 214 (6.3m) and A26 (6.4m) are considerably smaller than that of the Walrus-class
(8.4m). The extension of beam means new
design of hull, and it is very expensive and time-consuming work. The most
effective extension method is diversion of
existing hull design with bigger beam such as Type 216 (8.1m) and Collins
(7.8m) and application of existing information and data such as strength
calculation and hydrodynamics. The beam of the Type 216 and Collins is smaller
than Walrus-class, capacity of the former two is bigger than that of the later
where tear-drop shape and double hull structure are applied.
If displacement of the Walrus Replacement-new Netherlands
submarine is ca. 3,000 tons, the length of the required larger Type 212CD and
SAAB-DAME A26 will be ca. 65m, where ratio of length/beam is ca.8 closed to its
ideal value of 7.
The availability and cost of fuel must be considered for the long-range, long-term submarine missions to the Dutch Caribbean Sea - which contains the overseas territories of Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint/Saint Maarten.
[5] “Marineschepen.nl”
(Walrus class submarines : Operational
deployment), Jaime
Karremann, Feb/16/2019, marineschepen.nl, https://marineschepen.nl/schepen/walrus.html
[Long range] Deployment
of Walrus-class submarines: the Persian Gulf,
the waters around the Arabian Peninsula and the Indian Ocean, the Caribbean
(max. 3months), the coast of East Africa, etc.
As maximum mission
period of Japan's Soryu-class submarines is 70 days depending on food stock (the Collins-class is also the same),
reloading of food and fuel and rest of crews are needed for a 3 month mission
of a Netherlands’ submarine.
[6] Die Brennstoffzelle auf U 212 A, page22/24, 23/24, Sept/23/2008
In Europe, Gaseous or
liquid hydrogen is carried by tank truck and is stored in cryogenic tanks in
Europe. But, in remote areas, affordability of (gaseous or liquid) hydrogen is
difficult. Liquid oxygen (oxidizer) is needed for both FC and Stirling engine,
but, its affordability is not so great or difficult.
“The new,
expensive high-tech submarines (212A class) should be the pride of the [German]
Navy. But
internal documents prove how breakdowns and deficiencies delay their use by
years.”
Here,
a range of problems regarding the Type 212A have been reported. “The engineer is annoyed above all that the
manufacturer of the submarines, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems in Kiel, apparently
has learned nothing from the mistakes of the past.”
[8] “MKS 180 program : the master
stroke of German Naval Yards”, Defence Chronicles,
Aug/16/2018, https://www.defencechronicles.eu/mks180-program-the-master-stroke-of-german-naval-yards/
“Technical failures and bad management have inflated
the costs and imposed significant delays to both programs, leading the German
procurement authorities to oust them from the MKS 180 race.”
[9] “Marineschepen.nl”
(Somali waters too warm and too far for German submarines), Jaime Karremann,
Mar/14/2016, marineschepen.nl, see https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Duitse-onderzeeboot-niet-naar-Somalie-140316.html
“Last year, the German navy
announced that a German submarine would go to Somalia to collect intelligence
about pirates. After months of research, Germany has canceled the
mission: the water around the Horn of Africa is too hot and the distance is too
long for German submarines.”
Pete Comment - A third alternative, Naval Group, appears to be becoming a more serious
contender in the Walrus
Replacement Program (competition) - see further details later this week.
Anonymous (with some editing by Pete)
10 comments:
One thing about the ability of the 212 submarine to operate in "warm water", which is mentioned in various articles, but has been proven wrong:
1. The Italian 212 Operate for years in the Mediterranean Sea (Water Temperature > 25 degrees Celsius in Summer)
2. The Italian 212 had an deployment in the Aden Gulf: The Italian Navy's S 526 Todaro, between 1 September 2012 and 13 February 2013, for the first time was deployed to the Aden Gulf, Arabic Sea, Oman Gulf and Indian Ocean (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine)
Concerning the (in)-ability of the 212 of operating “far from homeport” and in warm waters a lot has been written down, but not always based on facts. To be more specific some facts:
A. The Italian navy already operates over 10 years with 212 submarines in the Mediterranean with seawater temperatures in summer of > 25 degrees Celsius
B. The Italian Navy's S 526 Todaro, between 1 September 2012 and 13 February 2013, for the first time was deployed to the Aden Gulf, Arabic Sea, Oman Gulf and Indian Ocean
C. The Italian Navy's S 526 Todaro was deployed, for over six months in 2008, to the United States for CONUS 2008 exercise with United States Navy.
D. The Italian Navy's S 527 Scirè was deployed, for over five months in 2009, to the U.S. for CONUS 2009 exercise with United States Navy.
(For B, C, D see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine#cite_note-15)
Hi Pete
In development of 212A, requirements of Germany and Italian Navy were taking into account. But, Sea temperature and depth of the Baltic Sea (summer 20C, winter 2-6C, average depth 55m) are considerably different from those of the Mediterranean Sea (21-28C, 8-18C, 1500m) providing somewhat different features of 212As for Germany and Italian Navy. Cooling system of fuel cell (FC) for Todaro is improved for use in the Mediterranean Sea, which is warmer than the Baltic Sea, and Todaro could avoid cooling problem of FC in German 212A (U34) [1], I think.
[1] “Marine declines Somalia mission”, by Frank Behling, KN-online, Feb/02/2016
Schleswig-Holstein Submarine not suitable for the tropics
https://www.kn-online.de/Nachrichten/b-Holstein/Marine-sagt-Somalia-Einsatz-ab-U-Boot-nicht-tropentauglich
“The anti-pirate mission of the Eckernförder submariners has been canceled surprisingly. The (German) naval command Rostock confirmed on request that "U34" will not participate in the multinational mission Atalanta in the Horn of Africa. According to information from KN-online, there are mainly technical reasons that led to the surprising decision.”
Thanks Anonymous
For the information on temperature control in the warmer operating environment of the Italian (often Mediterranean) Todaro class version of the Type 212A. Ulimately it may be different air-conditioning fitouts, with different temperature range adjustments that determine suitability in different operating environments.
The German 212A would have air-conditioners (for crew quarters, computer and engine room conditions) set for Germany's cool Baltic and North seas operating environment. German 212A air-conditioners may be too specialised for easy adjusted for hot-warm Middle East/North African air and water temperatures.
I would also say the Type 212A influenced Type 209s and/or 214s operated by Greece, Turkey, South Korea and Indonesia would have air-conditioners set for the warm water and air temperature conditions. Also the 209 and 214 related Dolphin 1s and 2s would have air-conditioners for Israel's warm-hot operating environment.
Turning to SAAB-Kockums submarines I imagine air-conditioners for A26s for Sweden will be set for much colder Baltic conditions than the hot-war conditions for Collins submarines for Australia.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
You assume wrong
Submarine type A26
Availability
The A26 will be able to operate world-wide, but is optimized for shallow water. In practice, this means that A26 can carry out transit over larger seas and then have its operational area near the coast. This, in addition to endurance requirements, also demands the ability to operate in water with different temperatures and salinity.
/Kjell
A Dutch delegation is visiting Navantia next week while one of their submarines visits Cartagena, so I wouldn't say the S-80 is excluded yet…
Thanks /Kjell
For your advice on the future A26.
The link https://www.fmv.se/sv/Projekt/Ubat-typ-A26/ you have provided is very interesting - it includes diagrams and a A26 project timeline.
To translate into English (or other languages) readers are invited to right click mouse at https://www.fmv.se/sv/Projekt/Ubat-typ-A26/ then "Translate to ...."
Regards
Pete
Thanks Anonymous
Re: "A Dutch delegation is visiting Navantia next week while one of their submarines visits Cartagena, so I wouldn't say the S-80 is excluded yet…"
Every sub has a chance until the Netherlands eventually, finally, makes decisions.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
In lithium ion battery (LIB) and lithium polymer (Li-Po) battery, organic solution and polymer gel (semi-solid) are used electrolyte, respectively. Li-Po is safer than LIB thanks to polymer gel. As Li-Po is polymer gel version of LIB, there many types of Li-Po, such as Li-Po NMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide). EST-Floattech.com commercialize Lithium Polymer battery (“Green Orca”) for marine application [1].
Examples 1 and 2 are estimated arrangement of Green Orca based on module and estimated submarine sizes in SAAB-DAMEN sub. In my impression, battery capacity is 10-20MW if Green Orcas are used for SAAB-DAMEN sub.
[1] “Green Orca High Energy, Technical Brochure” EST-Floattech.com,
https://www.est-floattech.com/app/uploads/2019/06/greenorca-technicalbrochure-144dpi.pdf
Energy module(weight 82kg) consists of 14 cells, its size is W x H x D=335 x 541 x 542 mm, and its capacity is 10.5kWh (14cells x 200Ah x 3.7V = 10.36kWh). Capacity per weight is 126Wh/kg (10.36kWh/82kg) . Capacity of Lithium Iron Phosphate is 90-120Wh/kg.
(Example 1)
Two battery sections with module arrangement of double stacking, 12 rows and 20 lines of module. Total number of batteries is 960 (= 2 sections x 12 rows x 20 lines x 2 stacks), and total capacity is 9.94MWh.
(Example 2)
Two battery sections with module arrangement of triple stacking, 12 rows and 20 lines of module.
Total capacity 14.9MW
Thanks Anonymous
I have turned your October 27, 2019 at 1:56 PM comment into an article today at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/10/lithium-polymer-li-po-batteries-safer.html
Regards
Pete
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