November 11, 2022

Japanese Submarine LIB distributions & other calculations.

Inspired by Anonymous's hard work are very simplified diagrams of Japanese subs -

with the estimated number of Lithium-ion Battery (LIB) modules in
yellow

All this highlights the advantages of Japanese all LIB Taigei subs over the 50 tonne lighter

all LIB Soryu Mk IIs (namely JS 
Oryu and JS Toryu). The LIB distribution

diagrams are:
 

 

 

 

Fin/Sail--------

 

 

 

 

 

Command Rm

 

 

Propuls-n

Diesel

Databases-----

Command Rm

Torpedo Rm

Bow Sonar

Motor

Engines

Crew sleeping

& eating areas

Torpedo Rm

Bow Sonar

Fuel/watr

Fuel/Water

80 LIBs a…..

Stores-----

Stores-----

Fuel/Water

Fuel/watr

Fuel/Water

80 LIBs b…..

240 LIBs c…..

240 LIBs d..

Fuel/Water

 Figure 1. - Schematic structure of Oryu/Toryu (Soryu Mark IIs) - noting:

-  5 Bulkheads: Propulsion Motor/Diesel/LIBs(ab)/LIBs(c)/LIBs(d)/Torpedo Room (Rm)

-  Number LIBs = 640 = 80 (a) + 80 (b) + 240 (c) + 240 (d)

-  Higher center of gravity due to 80 LIBs in higher LIBs "a" section

-  LIBs in "a" section increases vertical stray magnetic field problems. Stray fields can be more easily electro-magnetically detected by ASW enemies. Strays fields can also upset delicate electronic equipment in the submarine.

-  Regarding "Fuel/Water" once the Diesel Fuel is consumed the fuel tank is filled with seawater to maintain constant weight distribution (important for buoyancy and trim).

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

Fin/Sail-----------

 

 

 

 

 

Command Rm

 

 

Propuls-n

Diesel

Databases-----

Command Rm

Torpedo Rm

Bow Sonar

Motor

Engines

Crew sleeping

& eating areas

Torpedo Rm

Bow Sonar

Fuel/watr

Fuel/Water

FreshWater

Stores-----

Stores-----

Fuel/Water

Fuel/watr

Fuel/Water

LIBs A, LIBs B

LIBs C, LIBs D

LIBsE, LIBsF

Fuel/Water

Figure 2. - Schematic structure of Taigeis - much improved from Toryu/Oryu (Soryu Mark IIs) noting:

-  Greater number of LIBs for longer full submergence / more discrete = 720 LIB modules = 120 x 6 in each of (A, B, C, D, E & F) sections
-  Less vertical stray magnetic fields
-  Lower center of gravity, better for calculating and maintaining buoyancy and trim.
-  Less potential leakage of dangerous gases caused by fire from battery sections to upper sections. 

-  Easier to deploy downward traveling fire suppressant gases as all batteries are contained in bottom deck of a Taigei.

-  Fewer Bulkheads: maybe as low as 4 ie. Propulsion Motor/Diesel / LIBs (ABC) /LIBs (DEF) / Torpedo rooms.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Anonymous on November 8, 2022 provided extra calculations, which are reproduced below:

Energy of total Japanese submarine LIBs (codenamed “SLHs”) is estimated to be 62-74MWh and 70-83MWh for Oryu/Toryu (ie. The Soryu Mk IIs) and the Taigeis, respectively. This suggests maximum fully submerged endurance of 9-11 days and 10-12 days respectively [3].

Calculations:

[1] https://www.gs-yuasa.com/gyt/jp/products/space/ [Japanese doc . Just right-click mouse to Translate to English.]

High performance lithium-ion battery for spacecraft (eg. satellites and “space probes”): energy density 168Wh/kg, 130(Width) x 50(Depth) x 271(Height) all in mm
Energy density of this battery is ca.20% higher than [2] suggesting energy density of [2] is 140Wh/kg.


[2] https://www.gs-yuasa.com/gyt/jp/products/lithium_l.php 
[Japanese doc . Just right-click mouse to Translate to English.]
Large lithium-ion battery for space: energy density 140Wh/kg

[3] Estimated energy of submarine (Oryu/Toryu, Taigeis) with SLH (weight 770kg) based on 
[1] and [2]

If 10% of SLH is used for "frame" [does this mean for internal battery function, eg. keeping battery warm enough to be efficient?] and so on, then energy of SLH is 0.097-0.116MWh
(770kg x 140Wh/kg x 0.000001 MW/W or 770kg x 168Wh/kg x 0.000001 MW/W)

Energy: 62-74MWh [Oryu/Toryu, 640SLHs], 70-83MWh [Taigeis, 720SLHs]
(0.097MWh x 640 or 0.116MWh x 720 for Oryu/Toryu)

If daily energy consumption at surveillance speed [<4knots] is 6MWh [4] and depth of discharge is 90% for SLH, then maximum endurance is 9-11days [for Oryu/Toryu] and 10-12days [ for the Taigeis].
(62MWh / 6MWh x 0.9 or 74MMWh//6MWh x 0.9)

[4] Considering the significant electrical needs of submarine sonar systems and other non-propulsion electrical “hotel load”, then requirement may be 200kW. Energy requirements for propulsion at surveillance speed may be 50kW. Then daily energy consumption is 6MWh (=(200kW+50kW) x 24hours).

++++++++++++++++++++++++

For more launch date and other details of all these Japanese submarines see Submarine Matters Oyashio-Soryu-Taigei Table here.


8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

I'm a different Anonymous

A power load for propulsion of 50 Kw is far too low for a 3,000 tonne sub. 50 Kw being more like the power of a Outboard engine for a small amateur fishing boat or probably the power needed for a sub to barely stay idle in a current.

This is noting the Kuroshio current in the Tsushima Strait is above 5 knots. 300 KW is probably the minimum for a sub, necessary to reach 5 knots.

A simple back of the enveloppe calculation considering the public data (Jeumont engines):
-on the 2000T S-Br (Scorpene Brazil ) where a 2900 Kw is needed to sprint at 20 knots submerged
-on the Suffren class (5000T) where 15000 KW is needed to reach 28 knots

On the lower L/D Taigei at 3000T,(the power need evolves as the square of the speed) this rule of thumb will lead to 300+ Kw at 5 knots.This would mean a week in a real tectical situation which is remarkable

More important is the power density,the shape of the discharge /charge curve and the charging speed (under snorkel) to decrese the indiscretion ratio.

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete and Anonymous (Nov 12, 2022, 10:11:00 AM)

Estimation is based on Japanese NDS (National Defense Standard) (https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/nds/F/F8004_2.pdf, Japanese) F8004-2 (General rules for submarine electric propulsion equipment -Part 2 submarine equipped with AC propulsion motor = Soryu MKI).

Low speed 1 is rotation speed of propulsion motor (19-45rpm) [F8004_2.pdf (44/52) 4.4.1 table].
19rpm is minimum rotation speed of propulsion motor which is 10% of maximum rotation speed at maximum speed in water (=20knot/h) [ibid (9/52)4.4.2. table1, item 4 or 7].
Output of propulsion motor is 56.8kW at rotation speed of propulsion motor (39rpm) [ibid (38/52)4.4.2. table]

Regards

wispywood2344 said...

Hi Pete

There is a serious clue about the energy capacity of Japanese submarine LIB "SLH" hidden in a document published on the Web by the Japanese MoD.
This is it. [1]
It should look familiar to you.

Display the graph on the page 2 of this document and enter "Ctrl+A," you can reveal the HIDDEN (or FAILED TO BE DELETED) LETTERS on the vertical axis.[2]
Therefore, we can assert that the capacity of a lithium-ion cell used in "SLH" is 1000-2500 Ah.
Since "SLH" uses LCO as the positive electrode material and carbon as the negative electrode[3], the nominal voltage of a "SLH" module is around 37V.
Taken together, the energy capacity of "SLH" can be estimated to be around 36-93 KWh per module.

[1]FY2006 Post project evaluation "Development of new submarine main battery"
https://warp.da.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/11339364/www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/results/18/jigo/sankou/jigo05_sankou.pdf#page=2
[2]http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/SLH_Capacity_Leakage.gif
[3]"Realization of the world's first submarine equipped with a lithium-ion battery system", at Defennse structure improvement foudation.
https://ssl.bsk-z.or.jp/kenkyucenter/pdf/gyt20201210.pdf#page=2

Regards

wispywood2344

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Once, an influential politician on Japanese MoD revealed there was an improved version (SLH2?) of the current lithium-ion battery (=SLH) for submarine, but due to budget constraints, the improved version could not be obtained.

So, SLH2 might be based on is based on high performance lithium-ion battery for space (energy density 168Wh/kg), while SLH might be based on is based on large lithium-ion battery for space (energy density 140Wh/kg).

Regards

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

I think rather a lot hinges on the hotel load. I read all sorts of numbers from 50 to 200Kwh, but its all very iffy and vague.

My point is that is in all my reading the composition of hotel-load is glossed over, but maybe its worth some drilling down into this? EG: The Thales Velox M8 intercept sonar uses up to 400W when running (which I suspect is a max number). One could put some fair estimates on air circulation systems based on industrial HVAC. Ditto for refridgeration. Etc.

I confess I cant really contribute very much to this, I have snippets only, but I think its critical in understanding practical endurance for modern boats - if designers were able to halve the hotel load, they'd double endurance!

EG There is also the issue that any computational system that generates waste heat, will also need that heat removed, essentially doubling the energy cost (this is the classic cost issue with massive datacenters), ergo a BIG incentive to use highly efficient DSP's, CPU's, etc. I suspect most of the big sonar rigs designed by nuclear sub club countries are not overly concerned with power consumption (obviously), but other vendors may (or may not) be far more judicious.

Something to chew on.
C






Anonymous said...

Hi Pete and anonymous (Nov 14, 2022, 5:42:00 PM)

French SSN, Barracuda-class submarine is equipped with the Thales Velox M8 intercept sonar [1]. But, conventional submarine with limited power supply cannot be equipped with this kind of high power consumption sonar [2] and is equipped with low power consumption and less sensitive sonar in stead.

[1]https://www.navyrecognition.com/mobile/index.php/world-naval-forces/west-european-navies-vessels-ships-equipment/french-navy-marine-nationale-vessels-ships-equipment/submarines/2253-barracuda-class-ssn-nuclear-powered-attack-submarine-sna-sous-marins-nucleaire-dattaque-french-navy-marine-nationale-dcns-suffren-duguay-trouin-tourville-duquesne-de-grasse-dupetit-thouars-datasheet-pictures-photos-video-specifications.html

[2] SHIPS OF THE WORLD, Special issue 159, page 21, by Ex-fleet commander of JMSDF Masao Kobayashsi.
“In order to maintain the long-term diving, it is essential to reduce the hotel load, and it is necessary to reduce the power consumption of the onboard equipment. This makes great impact on the onboard equipment For example, bow sonar array of US submarine is a spherical array which generates uniform sonar beam toward not only right and left direction but also up and down direction and very effective, but there is no conventional submarine equipped with the spherical array because beam generation of this array needs huge amount of calculation, i.e., huge power consumption.”

Regards

Pete said...

Thanks Anonymous's, wispywood2344 and C

For all your Japanese subs, Scorpene's and Barracuda SSN comments on electrical power needs.

I'll sort through and turn your views, data and links into 2 articles (one for Friday and one next week)

Cheers Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Based on official report of Japanese MoD, decrease in numbers of bulkheads was estimated to be four Tagei-class submarines [1-3], while numbers of bulkheads in Soryu MKI and II are five.

[1] Study on structural type of submarine by MoD (FY2012)
Implementation plan (completed): FY2013-2015 (budget implementation 554 million yen) Prototyping (by MHI) , FY2014-2015 (budget implementation 504 million yen) Laboratory testing (by MHI)
Needs (excerpt): Elongation of the compartment based on the new structural type of submarine is needed to contribute to the rational installation of the equipment inside of submarine..

[2]If length of submarine does not change, “elongation of compartment” may suggest decrease in numbers of bulkhead.

[3] Taigei was laid down in 2018, and its length is as same as Soryu.

Regards