Anonymous, on October 28, 2022
made the following excellent comments:
Pete. Thanks for [France's SSN offer Should be a Taskforce Plan B] and link back to your previous accurate posts. I share this view to the point that your plan B is now my plan A.
I note ASPI interviewed Admiral Mead [on October 27, 2022] who remained optimistic about the RN-USN project. Of
course it is his job to do so. Yet the fact that he suggested a (now) “14 year
old girl” might become the commander of Australia’s first SSN suggests it will
take another 20 years.
Since the announcements that
both:
(1) USA are struggling with Virginia
program delivery and would have difficulty supporting RAN SSNs before 2040 and
(2) the UK cannot supply the
Astute class and would presumably offer Australian participation in the SSN(R]
program it is difficult to share Mead’s optimism.
The Columbia SSBN program runs
to 2041 assuming no further delay. Starting a US SSN design then assuming a two
year drumbeat and 8 year construction time would mean a first RAN SSN by 2049
and 8 not completed until 2063. What will the PLAN have by then? As per your point
on US politics, there will be another 4 POTUS elections before that start date.
The UK SSN(R) will best case
not complete design till 2026, while the Dreadnought SSBN program runs to 2038.
The corresponding start date would give a first RAN SSN by 2046 and 8 by 2060.
The UK approach now also has a lot more cost and delivery risk because the
SSN(R) design is not complete.
The cost of the US SSN(X) and
UK SSN(R) will also be so much higher that they might delay other defence
programs, like the Hunter frigates and completion of the F-35 acquisition.
Also the potential decade plus
delay in the start of Adelaide sub construction jobs won’t go down well in the
new government, which creates political risks for the RAN. What if Labor
decides to fund something else instead in the mean time?
So I’d rather we set out on a
more achievable and affordable task sooner and got 8 French SSNs that would
still be regionally superior to Chinese or Russian SSNs, than wait to build the
world’s best SSNs and possibly never receive them.
Pete Comments
Thanks Anonymous. Taking your points
in turn.
Yes a French SSN offer, if
firm, may well be more useful and relevant for Australia to face a China that refuses to wait for the late 2040s AUKUS sub in-service date. Australia rejecting a
French SSN option on refueling grounds seems a false goalpost when it is
recalled the French fuel is lower proliferation sensitive LEU. Also amidst the
$10s Billions of SSN infrastructure Australia will need to construct an
Adelaide or HMAS Stirling LEU refueling capability could be part of it.
I think a US SSN, be it late model
Virginia or SSN(X), will be built to include such high anti-China, anti-Russia ASW Seawolf-like
specs, that its higher cost and technical sensitivity will prevent export to Australia.
The Astutes going out of production, UK SSBN production hiatus, and SSN(R) high ASW specs and cost and delay also being nonstarters.
Added to all that is unforeseen
inflation in the US, UK and Australia and unfavourable exchange Australian dollar rates making an
already extremely expensive AUKUS SSN project a huge financial risk over the 25
years until an Aus SSN is operational.
So, yes a French Barracuda SSN
could cut risks in several ways.
On the ASPI article Mead is as careful as his position allows. Marles has more latitude though
runs against the US and UK’s well documented delays till 2040s when Marles talks
of “need for haste is dictated by deteriorating strategic circumstances”.
Nowhere in the public AUKUS SSN program delivery timings is there hope for “haste”.
I see the article’s statement “Marles has undertaken to strengthen the lethality and deterrent effect” as providing distant hope that Marles is hinting that the 25 tonne Conventional high explosive limit for AUKUS SSN weapons can be enriched by other explosive technologies.
But this is probably a
faint hope until
A. In Ukraine Russia uses a Radiological Weapon (eg. using explosives to spread radioactive substances in the large power Reactor complex over a wide area) or uses a Nuclear Weapon.
or
B. After China installs
ballistic or hypersonic missiles on the Solomons
or
C. When China invades Taiwan.
Fear of China made SSNs for Australia an unexpected possibility and even greater future fears of Chinese or Russian acts may make Australian weapon “ambiguity” possible.
10 comments:
the French SSN opportunity seems to have passed otherwise why not include them in the AUKUS? Was not the relationship with Naval Group that bad? Can the French even deliver subs or like the Brits are they commited to alternating between the boomers and attack subs?
Pete
Thanks and your elaboration of my concerns is exactly what I had intended. Not having an Astute or prompt Virginia class build option for the RAN now puts a large dent in SSN hopes from AUKUS.
Your outlining of three possible flashpoints that could trigger the need for such capability is again, unfortunately very plausible.
Hi Pete
French perspective6
Misunderstanding in my opinion about "the yard" capacity issue
For the "French" SSN//SSBN the capacity issue (with 1/2 years lead time) is probably not the nuclear section.The Indret plant is a metallurgical plant with forging , machining and assembly.
The key technologies are in the fuel cycle and the process,safety ect controls not requiring more than 1/ 2 years lead time for a running operation (where great care is taken not to change !).These are not in Indret;It is not in its physical reality the most complex part by far of the sub (my opinion again)
The size of the dry-dock and final assembly could be adressed by having sections built aside as it is done in many civilian yards
The main issue is qualified people..One required thousand("s" may be) of highly qualified , trained , operators ,technicians , engineer which are extremely difficul to hire , train and retain for such impredictable industry (engineers demographics !).This was the primary problem of Naval in Aus, part of the delay also. Several hundred people, mainly in Aus were recruited , trained and..terminated,3 to 5 years in the mission(with severance) as a result. Will they come back?Or stay insurance salesmen,(nothing against Insurance !2)
The problem of industry is not the physical production but the product and process engineering , the IT, the quality controls ect (from aircrafts , cars , drugs or household
detergents..! it is the same.. managing enormous technical and organisational complexities..
Hi Pete
Malcolm Turnbull should have selected Japanese submarine.
Regards
Experiment vessel plans in works as Japan looks to possess submarines carrying long-range missiles
https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/defense-security/20221030-67735/
The development plan will be included in the National Defense Program Guidelines to be revised by the year-end.
The construction of the experiment submarine will start in fiscal 2024 and is expected to take several years. As for launch methods, vertical firing from the body of the vessel and horizontal firing from a torpedo tube will be studied. Based on the trial operation of the experiment submarine, the government will determine within 10 years whether to introduce such a submarine for actual defense operations.
Hi Pete
Re my Oct 28,at 07 09 ,comments on the people issue
A casual look at the Naval Group Corporate site , Careers /Join us (Carrieres in fr) reveals at this hours several hundreds of openings. Mainly at the Ingenieurs(MS Sc or Tech typically )or specialists/technicians (technical school /BSengineering or Sc)
A similar situation is found in the Fr N industry where EDF is trying to bring forward the backlog of maintenance/repairs of N power plants caused by Covid and even more by the lack of recruiting in thes last 8/10 years due to the lack of perspective for a "doomed'" industry !(according to the Hollande/Macron 2017, Green pressurized..Gov)
BTW there is exactly the same situation in the US where the yards are unable to follow the USN needs (even more AUS..)for the same reason. Official statements
If not ,one cannot explain why a country whith such tremendous capital , space , people,organisational skills, ressources like the USA is unable to ramp up
This is also the reason behind Naval effort in Brazil and India (also in aerospaces , Airbus and Safran, in these 2 countries., Helo and Engines..) tapping highly credible engineering talents in these countries while accessing the market.This was also the intention in the now defunct Aus Barracuda project.the Japanese offer, which had technical merits, was an off the shelf replicate..
In fact the Japanese industry is facing exactly the same situation, even more due to the poor demography and the lack of immigrant talents (political, cultural,barriers.)
It takes 5 to to 10 years to build these people and 20 for them to become independant if they do not stop and go
My pleasure Anonymous @Oct 29, 2022, 2:50:00 PM
With a large friendly landmass between the Pacific and Indian oceans Australia needs nuclear capabilities long before the 2040s.
Yes, while Australia's main focus is on China Russia's use of WMDs: chemical, biological, radiological or nuclear, in Ukraine - could dismantle WMD taboos, causing China and North Korea to do likewise.
Meanwhile South Korea building SSBs, that only make sense if something more powerful than conventional explosives are used, has Japan probably planning its own.
So the long anticipated cascade of "special weapon thought" is reaching Australia.
Regards Pete
Thanks Anonymous @Oct 30, 2022, 4:11:00 PM for your:
"Experiment vessel plans in works as Japan looks to possess submarines carrying long-range missiles
https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/defense-security/20221030-67735/
The development plan will be included in the National Defense Program Guidelines to be revised by the year-end.
The construction of the experiment submarine will start in fiscal 2024 and is expected to take several years. As for launch methods, vertical firing from the body of the vessel and horizontal firing from a torpedo tube will be studied. Based on the trial operation of the experiment submarine, the government will determine within 10 years whether to introduce such a submarine for actual defense operations."
I'LL COMBINE IT WITH wispywood2344's, Oct 29, 2022, 12:13:00 PM comment at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2022/09/more-on-japans-ascms-types-12-17.html?showComment=1667006028001#c4372975863633766057
"Hi Pete.
There have been two major news recently, so I would like to share with you here.
The first is that the Japanese government is considering the introduction of Tomahawk missiles as a stopgap until the deployment of the "Type 12 Imp.". [1]
This news suggests that the Japanese government considers the possibility of war in the Taiwan Strait by around 2030.
The other is that the Japanese government is considering building a testbed submarine to acquire SSGs equipped with the "Type 12 Imp." and/or Tomahawk in the future. [2]
The tuture SSGs may enter service around 2040 as the next next class after the Taigei class.
By that time, many of the roles currently filled by SSKs may have been taken over by LDUUVs, and all Japanese manned submarines built after the 2040s may be SSGs.
[1]Japanese government considers introducing US-made Tomahawk missile.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/ce5061a712132b0ca43c3389ef34e650a84780cd
[2]Japanese government considers building "tesetbed SSG", with a view to Tomahawk-equipped submarines.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/692c2b074badc08df6238b4bdf827f331eaa520d "
INTO AN ARTICLE THIS WEEK
REGARDS PETE
Hi
- suffolkowner @Oct 29, 2022, 8:57:00 AM;
- Anonymous "French perspective" Oct 29, 2022, 7:02:00 PM:
- and Anonymous @Oct 30, 2022, 7:51:00 PM
It could be Australia's 2016 selection of SSK and SSN builder France in 2016 may have served as a signal to the US and UK that if strategic threats warranted it
Australia's SSK order from France would be shifted to a French SSN order.
As China's "strategic threats warranted it" by 2021 Australia's French SSN option was too concerning for the US and UK to accept. A fundamental French-Australian Nuclear alliance, would have been outside the UKUSA Agreement, something unthinkable.
Australia therefore levered the French SSN Option into a more capable US/UK SSN option by September 2021 - and the rest is AUKUS history.
However the French SSN offer to Australia is now even more possible because the US/UK at the IAEA recently knocked down the export-SSN-technology taboo, on Australia's behalf. France may well be in a better position to "deliver" a French SSN, via Australia's Osborne shipyard, years before the US/UKs 2040s impasse.
Also, unlike the US/UK, the French have a better record of constructing a Dimona Option.
I suggest if the French and other international nuclear engineering staff are paid sufficient money they can deliver anything nuclear, in France or, under French guidance, in Australia.
Hi Anonymous @Oct 30, 2022, 4:11:00 PM
I've turned your comment into article "Japan Considering SSG/SSB Subs in the Future"
of November 3, 2022
at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2022/11/japan-considering-ssgssb-subs-in-future.html
Regards Pete
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