At Canadian Patrol Submarine Project: Update 1. of November 24, 2023 https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/11/canadian-patrol-submarine-project.html I asked what were the three decent contenders for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP). This was with reference to likely requirements also set out at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/11/canadian-patrol-submarine-project.html:
It
is early days with the CPSP team having few staff. This means firm contenders or
a shortlist may not exist well into the 2020s. In the meantime here is my top contender:
South Korea’s (SK’s) Hanwha Ocean (was DSME) KSS-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSS-III_submarine. Hanwha may already know/hope it is top contender having already signed 4 MoUs with Canadian companies and a Technical Cooperation Agreement with Babcock Canada.
The
KSS-3 is the largest (highest surface displacement) sub being considered.
The KSS-3 Batch-1 already has 3 operational subs. Batch 1s are 83.5m long, 3,358 tonnes surfaced, 10,000nm range, with 50 crew. It has Lead-acid batteries (LABs) and a SK developed fuel cell AIP.
The first (even larger) Batch-2 is under construction,
scheduled to be commissioned in 2026. It is 89m long, 3,600 tonnes surfaced, with Lithium-ion
batteries (LIBs) and AIP. If the RCN (like the RAN) is nervous about the
short track record and runaway heat buildup = fire concerns about LIBs compared to the 120 year record of LABs, then LIBs might be considered a minus. However if Canada sees LIBs as a plus then the Batch-2's AIP and LIBs might be the winning combination.
Some in Canada might be attracted to the still currently named "DSME"-3000 export concept sub. But it may run the risk of being a Canada only orphan design, also displacing only 3,000 tonnes surfaced and the current draft concept doesn’t have VLS.
VLS is seen by the SK and maybe Israeli navies and PLA as attractive in SSKs and essential in Los Angeles (Flights II and III), Virginias, Russian Yasens and emerging SSN designs.
SK, unlike Japan (which might be offering Taigei-class subs to Canada) has a long history of supplying major weapons systems to foreign customers. SK’s Hanwha Ocean (then DSME) built and supplied 2 x Type 209 variant/highly improved Nagapasa-class subs in 2017 and 2018 to Indonesia. Hanwha also supplied the parts of a third Nagapasa-class for assembly by PT PAL, Surabaya Indonesia, commissioned 2021.
Consideration of other submarines for Canada and Poland might occur after I shift my attention to a new blog - on WordPress.
Regards Pete
12 comments:
Hi Pete
What is the relationship between Hanwha and Hyundai? Both have signed with Babcock. Would a united pitch not be better?
The same with Kawasaki and Mitsubishi in Japan?
They're also trying to sell the KSS-3 to Poland:
"Hanwha Ocean aims to present to the Polish Navy its cutting-edge
and sea-proven KSS-III Submarine, contributing to enhanced security
in the Baltic Sea. Additionally, Hanwha Ocean shared its vision for
Poland by establishing a strong industrial partnership, bringing
economic and industrial benefits to the country. Vice President
Sung Kyun Jeong, Head of Hanwha Ocean’s Naval Ship International
Business, said: “We are ready to offer the KSS-III Submarine, one of
the world’s best submarines, for Poland’s Orka Project. We also want
to share our long-term vision for the partnership with Poland on
this occasion.” Currently in active service with the Republic of
Korea (ROK) Navy, the 3,600-ton class KSS- III has demonstrated
advanced technologies and capabilities, contributing to enhanced
deterrence of Poland."
See:
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2023/november/13842-hanwha-ocean-proposes-kss-iii-submarine-as-strategic-partnership-in-poland-s-orka-project.html
Hello from Spain.
Regarding the Korean AIP, it is well known that the fuel cell is a Korean design & manufature, but what about the source of Hydrogen? That is the KEY point in the AIP system based in fuel cells.
As far as I know, Korea is using the German metal hydride technology, so that could be a constraint for any export deal...
I hope the Canadian Navy can find enough people to man their new subs:
"Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) commander, Vice Admiral Angus Topshee, affirmed
in a video released on the RCN YouTube channel that the service is in a
critical state, unable to sufficiently staff its aging surface combatant
ships due to recruiting shortfalls.
The staffing issue has forced the RCN to prioritize operating its 12
Canadian-built Halifax-class multi-role patrol frigates at the cost of
operating its 12 Kingston-class Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs).
“The RCN faces some very serious challenges right now,” Vice Adm. Topshee
says in the video, posted on Monday, “that could mean we fail to meet our
force posture and readiness commitments in 2024 and beyond.”
See:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/11/30/the-royal-canadian-navys-commander-says-it-is-in-a-critical-state
Hi suffolkowner at 12/01/2023 1:59 AM
"What is the relationship between Hanwha and Hyundai? Both have signed with Babcock. Would a united pitch not be better?"
Looks like Hanwha Ocean (HO) is doing most of the KSS-3 building and leading the KSS-3 pitch to Canada.
But see all the references to Hyundai at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSS-III_submarine
HHI's separate dealings with Babcock might be centered on HHI's furure SK aircraft carrier
See "South Korea’s HHI And Babcock Ink Strategic Alliance For CVX Aircraft Carrier" https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/09/south-koreas-hhi-and-babcock-ink-strategic-alliance-for-cvx-aircraft-carrier/
Yes there seem many similarities with "Kawasaki and Mitsubishi in Japan" with DSME (now HO) alternatively launching KSS-2s with HHI. Then HO launched the first 2 KSS-3 Batch-1s and HHI launched the 3rd KSS-3 Batch-1 see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSS-III_submarine#Ships_in_the_class
The issues you raise are worth you further researching and reporting back.
Cheers Pete
Hi Anonymous at 12/01/2023 4:54 AM
Yes I noticed Hanwha Ocean is "also trying to sell the KSS-3 to Poland". at
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2023/november/13842-hanwha-ocean-proposes-kss-iii-submarine-as-strategic-partnership-in-poland-s-orka-project.html
Several observations:
- the KSS-3 is a very big sub for Poland's confined, shallow, narrow, rock strewn, Baltic Sea patrol area
- South Korea is extremely distant from Polan
- regarding the KSS-3's big VLS selling point ie the ability to launch ballistic land attack missiles. This may be a dangerous Polish option if the conceivable enemies (Russia and Belarus) can respond with the tactical nuclear missiles already based in their territories.
Much more likely Poland may buy subs from fellow NATO countries eg.
- used AIP Type 212A's from Germany
- used non-AIP, but inexpensive, Type 210's from Norway.
- Or new larger AIP Type 212CDs from Germany.
Sweden's AIP A26s may be competitive, especially after (or if) Sweden joins NATO.
Regards Pete
Hi Spanish Anonymous at 12/01/2023 5:00 AM
I've done a bit of research.
It appears South Korea’s Bumhan Industries has parallel developed traditional fuel cell stack modules https://bumhan.com/en/fuelcell/ optimized for submarine application.
But SK is also maturing Methanol Reformer AIP.
Juho Lee for Naval News reported https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/south-koreas-add-develops-critical-technology-for-submarine-aip/ February 24, 2022
“South Korea’s ADD Develops Critical Technology For Submarine AIP”
"South Korea’s Agency for Defense Development (ADD) announced on February 22 that it has completed development on “methanol reforming plant technology” for submarine fuel cells.
Technology is key for Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).
The technology developed by ADD will allow submarines that use AIP to produce high-purity hydrogen, allowing them to stay underwater for longer periods of time.
Submarines that are currently operated by the Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN) are equipped with high-efficiency fuel cell AIP and use high-purity hydrogen as fuel which allows them to stay submerged for long periods of time. However, the storage alloy used to store hydrogen fuel has relatively low storage capacity, can only be charged using facilities specifically designed for hydrogen fuel, and takes a long period of time to charge.
According to ADD, the use of “methanol-reforming plant technology”, which transforms methanol into hydrogen by altering its chemical structure, negates the need for separate charging facilities and decreases charging times significantly, in addition to allowing the submarine to operate submerged for longer.
“This technology will contribute significantly to increasing the capabilities of domestically produced submarines. The technology can also be used for the development of fuel cells for civilian ships and industrial purposes, playing an important role in the growth of the ‘hydrogen-powered economy’,”
The development follows Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)’s [now Hanwha Ocean's] delivery of its prototype methanol reforming plant technology to ADD last November. It is likely that ADD made the technology ready for use by refining it even further.
“The company has proven its world-class technological competitiveness in this field by carrying out this research project,” DSME Research Institute Director Choi Dong-gyu said in a statement released at the time.
The first submarines to feature this new technology will likely be the KSS III Batch 2."
PETE COMMENT
I know other countries (like Spain?) are also developing the Methanol Reformer AIP approach.
Can anyone try to claim "We invented it first" worldwide "copyrights"?
Regards Pete
Thanks Anonymous at 12/01/2023 8:58 AM
For https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/11/30/the-royal-canadian-navys-commander-says-it-is-in-a-critical-state
The RAN and UK RN also have submariner shortages.
One reason is life on a surface ship is always more comfortable, safer and you can visit foreign ports (like in Southeast Asia) more frequently.
Another reason is surface seamen can receive and maybe send social media mobile phone (and ship's comms messages) from home much of the time.
Submariners are locked out of the social media revolution while submerged. Just occasional short messages from home is increasingly less attractive. This is making submariner life harder to accept, even if the pay top-ups are substantial.
Also sheer higher numbers of crew needed on SSNs over the 58 in Collins SSKs (58) will exacerbate crew shortages. Virginias require 135 and Astutes 98 and likely SSN-AUKUS will require 105 (ie. 7 more for the VLS) with much more thorough nuclear engineering training for safe handling.
All spelling big problems for Australia's already expensive AUKUS future.
Regards Pete
Hi Pete
Any "system", a factory, a living organism, ..or a Navy is always limited by a critical limiting step/ressource
In the Westen Navies this is pepole , trained , technically trained, tactically competent (as a result of 3/5years on the job (retention up to 7/10 years makes the difference)
We spend a lot of times on platforms and their latest tech but the fact of the matters is that in most cases there is more platforms than crew..Anybody who has served know also yhat people (training , motivation, experience are paramount
Not only Canada ,but also Italy (unable to use all its FREMM frigates) Germany W/O sub for 2 years, the Royal Navy (Article on NavyLookout of Nov 2 showing an actual contraction of RN personnal, unable to recruit and so on..this can be observed nearly everywhere
There is also as a result a competence issue..witness the recent sinking of a brand new Norwegian frigate , with all the most modern systems,with the deck"confused" by the light of an illuminated Norwegian harbour at night! (ie not very exotic for this Navy).
In Spain only SENER is working with Thyssen in Metahnol reforming, but as an alternative technology in case the ETHANOL reforming by NAVANTIA of the S80 class fails...but the Methanol reforming technology is BY THYSSEN!
The ARMADA is not going to the Methanol "path", and it seems that the Ethanol Reforming has been approved after the FATs carried out at NAVANTIA CARTAGENA. In fact, it is being said in Spain that the AIP System has already been installed in its "ring" of the S83 hull...Hope there are some pictures in the next weeks
The KSS 3 is much too big for the Baltic Sea. Smart marketing people selling to megalomaniac politicians. But it has nothing to do with operational needs.
Hi Pete
https://twitter.com/xaviervav/status/1730930974731505970
looks like the A26 derivative from Sweden will come with mk 48 torpedoes and LM CMS a good leg up in the Canadian competition if they can win the Dutch
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