In a report of July 10, 2023 from India's The Print, India might be buying several French designed weapon types. This might include 3 additional Kalvari-class Scorpenes, without AIP, to be assembled at Mumbai's Mazagon dockyard.
The Print report is by SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP and edited by Tony Rai. The report states in part:
"New Delhi: India and France are set to ink key agreements that would pave the way for new fighters and submarines for the Indian Navy during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to the country for the Bastille Day [July 14, 2023] parade this week, ThePrint has learnt.
On the agenda are a deal to procure 26 naval version of the Rafale fighter jets [and] three additional Scorpene submarine[s]..."
...Another key important project is the Project 75 [Kalvari-class] under which six Scorpene class submarines have been built in India with partnership with state-un Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL).
The Indian Navy is [separately pursuing Project 75I ("I" for India) for 6 SSKs with already proven, operational, AIP].
The French are out of the race for [Project 75I] because they don’t meet key tender requirements of the Indian Navy.
Sources said that the French through their India partner MDL have proposed to the government to build three more [Kalvari-class] Scorpene submarines [at MDL's existing Kalvari assembly line] with the Indian shipyard making a case for expertise gained while ensuring the vessels do not go waste.
It is understood that the Indian Navy feels that three more Scorpene class submarines can be built since the P75I programme is delayed and could take time for it to see the light of the day.
The Indian Navy is facing a submarine crisis and has fallen back on its 30 year plan which ends in 2030.
Under the ambitious 30-year plan that ends in 2030, India was to build 24 submarines — 18 conventional submarines and six nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) — as an effective deterrent against China and Pakistan.
Of the 18 conventional submarines, Indian Navy has managed only 6 so far.
Defence Minister Rajnath Singh [chaired] a crucial meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council [DAC] [mentioned below].
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Subsequently, on July 13, 2023, the DAC granted the Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for procurement of the three additional Scorpenes to be assembled by MDL.
10 comments:
Hi Pete
No formail confirmation from the Fr.side
Conditionnal info , sourced from Indian press, inthe economical or specialised press
-comments are
no real surprise for the Rafale M as the case was overwhelming in may areas
-Scorpene deal coherent as the e P75I would not delibver anything operational before late 30 art the fastest.. negociation..,design.. Mazagon ready.Not cklear if the 3 Scorpene are Li equipped as rumours exists about the Indonesaian proposal
-the success for the press is the "repeat customer" syndrom which tell something about the actual performance of the system incl.support
-(the P75 I would be squeezed beetewen Scorpene with the DRDO and the future SSN for which there is speculation of Fr collaboration on the non Nuc Part. Navantia with the S80 is also in a position to have a sea proven AIP
-rumours also about Safran joint developement of a 11T reactor (Safran present in India for civiliabn and Helo Engines).Safran had a 9 T engine for the Quater Mirage, (they went for rafale) and is workind on the 11 T for the SCAF with Germany and Spain which is going nowhere..
All these European projects are a recipe for disasters 'EF, A400M survived after MTU Fadec nearly killed it, NH 90 , Tiger helo.
The critical demo of this technology was reported 18 months ago (Turenne technology ?) and an absorption of R§D cost and lower cost Mfg would be the result of this joint project with a much larger customer base
Strangely enough, the 'too fat' Spanish S80 Plus submarine, with over twenty years of development and mistakes, is still in the running for P-75I.
First in class S81 Isaac Peral will commission this year, 12 years later than initially scheduled.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/07/navantia-sign-teaming-agreement-with-indias-lt-for-p-75i/
Sensible decision if true. The Indian Navy is in desperate need of new Subs and additional Scorpenes are the only way to get them any time soon.
Hopefully they can be upgraded with an AIP system to match the 8 AIP equipped Yuan class submarines that Pakistan is getting from China.
Hi Anonymous from France at 7/11/2023 10:14 PM
While the 3 Scorpene sale is not yet confirmed I'm sure French Government owned Naval Group (NG) would be hopeful. Since Australia terminated the 12 Shortfin order in 2021 NG needs new SSK orders. NG is, of course, also competing for orders in Romania (almost won), the Netherlands, Indonesia and eventually the Philippines.
I doubt the first 2 of the 3 Scorpenes would be Li Battery (Lib) equipped as this might lead to lengthy contractural negotitions. Lib Scorpenes would likely be much more expensive and disrupt the existing production drumbeat at Mazagon dockyard. However I',m gussing that by 2028 when the last of the 3 is being produced Li batteries (what I coin as "Euro-Libs") might by cheap and safe enough to use.
Also if P-75(I) for 6 SSKs is delayed for 5 more years then incorporating Libs in 6 future Scorpenes rather than French or DRDO AIP might be acceptable to India.
Although, if P-75(I) remains an AIP competition I agree with you that Navantia might also eventually compete against the existing South Korean and TKMS competitors.
If NG helps with non nuclear parts of India's future SSNs NG might need to negotiate with the Russian advisers who will be helping develop the SSNs' reactors.
Regards Pete
Hi Shawn C at 7/12/2023 12:08 AM
You're right that Navantia's S80 Plus has returned to the P-75(I) competition with https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/07/navantia-sign-teaming-agreement-with-indias-lt-for-p-75i/ (that you cite) advising:
"Larsen & Toubro and Navantia, Spain signed a Teaming Agreement (TA) today for the purpose of submission of a techno-commercial bid for the Indian Navy’s prestigious P75 (India) submarine program.
Naval News Staff 10 Jul 2023"
Basically the longer India keeps the P-75(I) competition going the more contestants and developing technical options (AIP and Libs or just Libs) appear.
Regards Pete
Hi Anonymous at 7/12/2023 8:52 AM
Yes I agree with your conclusions - especially the need for India to keep up in the AIP-SSK arms race with the 8 AIP equipped Yuans that Pakistan will eventually have.
Also Chinese Yuans with AIP are already entering the Indian Ocean. China is already the world's No.1 producer of Lib automobiles (I believe) and I dare say China is experimenting with Libs in submarines or actually fielding them.
Perhaps China, using its own large, innovative, industrial base (and a bit of espionage into S Korean KSS-III Batch 2 production) is developing its own new submarine class with AIP + Libs + VLS?
China's single Type 032 "Qing" class test submarine might be very busy at the moment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing-class_submarine .
Regards Pete
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1939178
A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), held under the chairmanship of Raksha Mantri approved three proposals on July 13, 2023. The DAC granted Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for procurement of 26 Rafale Marine aircraft along with associated ancillary equipment, weapons, simulator, spares, documentation, crew training and logistic support for the Indian Navy from the French Government based on Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA).
The DAC also granted the AoN for procurement of three additional Scorpene submarines under Buy (Indian) category which will be constructed by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL).
Thanks Soumya Ray at 7/14/2023 12:07 AM
For the information on the Scorpene aspect - which I've added to the article accordingly.
Regards Pete
It seems the plan is for the 3 additional Scorpenes to come with the DRDO AIP from the get-go. We'll see how this goes...
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/naval-group-working-on-qualifying-drdo-developed-air-independent-propulsion-system-for-installation-on-scorpenes/article67091237.ece
Hi Gessler at 7/19/2023 12:52 PM
Yes https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/naval-group-working-on-qualifying-drdo-developed-air-independent-propulsion-system-for-installation-on-scorpenes/article67091237.ece does indicate Naval Group "is also working on qualifying" the DRDO AIP for installation
on the 3 "Fleet II" Kalvari-class Scorpenes - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine_(2015)#Ships_of_the_class
I would say the first Fleet II will be designated "S27", with the DRDO AIP being integrated during the initial build (as you say "from the get-go").
The DRDO AIP will then need to pass an at-sea work up period and then operationally - with the combined process perhaps taking 3 years.
If the DRDO AIP on S27 proves satisfactory then integration on initial build of "S28" and "S29" could occur.
Possibly simultaneously could be retrofitting DRDO AIP on the existing 6 Kalvari "Fleet Is"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine_(2015)#Ships_of_the_class
as part of their deep maintenance cycles.
Who knows. The Russians might see DRDO AIP as suitable for initial or retrofitting on Russian, Indian and foreign Kilos, Amurs and Ladas?!
Cheers Pete
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