Anonymous has kindly provided the comments (original words)
and further translated by Pete below on November 8, 2018.
A full Lithium-ion
Battery (LIB) system was adopted on the first Japanese Soryu Mark 2 submarine
("SS" sequence number 27SS – see red in Table below), which was launched on October 4, 2018. [Pete comment: A LIB system not only means 100s of tonnes of new type batteries but new
or altered electrical wiring, connections, adjusted propulsion motor, adjusted
consumer hotel load equipment (eg. computers), and many other weight conscious rearranegements = new buoyancy settings.]
LIBs
replace the Stirling air independent propulsion (AIP) and lead-acid batteries
(LABs) in previous Soryus (see Table below). The Japanese Ministry of Defense
(MoD) and Navy adopted LIBs, because they perceived major problems in Japan's 13 years of using Stirling AIP.
More
specifically in the older Soryu Mark 1 (AIP + LABs) submarines Stirling AIP’s drawbacks probably
include/included:
i) major weight,
balance-buoyancy changes as 10s of tonnes of liquid oxygen (LOx) is consumed in
the heavy LOx tanks. See “Combat Technology of Submarine” 2015 by H. Yamaichi.
Ex-captain of JS Setoshio (SS-575)
which was a Yushio
class submarine). He was is also ex-Professor in the National Defense
Academy of Japan. He said “Weight of goods (water, food, etc) is strictly
controlled in submarine.”
ii) low AIP
energy output, which effects acceleration and speed,
iii) Stirling AIP can only operate at a diving depth down to 200m.
See more below on this last diving depth point.
iv) [Pete comment: Time needed to warm up the AIP? AIP cannot be instantly accelerated or switched on to confront a crisis, like a Chinese torpedo.]
The
relative high costs of LIBs and Stirling AIP is an uncertain issue. It is not
known why Japan did not decide to retain Stirling AIP and then add LIBs in a new submarine.
[Pete
comment - Note that Japan’s needs submarine stored energy (be it diesel, battery
electricity or AIP chemicals) that is appropriate to Japan’s mission
requirements. Requirements which may vary from short defensive missions to longer (4,000+ km) range
missions in the western Pacific. AIP very well meets requirements in small
enclosed seas but can have major overall drawbacks in open seas/oceans.]
Further to point iii) above - by recharging in gentle seas the LIBs Soryu Mark 2s can be operate for a far longer period than LABs-AIP Soryu Mark 1s (whose fully submerged operational period is controlled by the limited amount of LOx carried in Mark 1s).
According
to Japan’s MoD, the replacement of Stirling AIP-LABs is because LIBs allow a longer
time submerged. “In simple thinking, this statement seems to be false because
energy from Stirling AIP is nearly 100 MWh larger than that from LIBs” (50 MWh).
But, if a Stirling AIP-LABs Soryu needs to operate below a depth of 200m, it
can no longer utilise AIP [due to AIP's no greater than 20 bars exhaust pressure limitations] and
instead must rely on its LABs.
AIP’s
diving depth limited down to 200m is a problem because Japanese submarines are
operated in the Sea of Japan and West Pacific Ocean which are much deeper than
200m. In those standard situation a LIBs Soryu will yield a longer submerge period than AIP-LABs Soryu. [Pete Comment: Note, in using AIP Soryu Commanders, do not want to forego their sub's unusually deep max diving depth - maybe around 700m.]
So Japan’s
MoD has selected LIBs Soryus for full range-operation deeper diving
efficiency.
AIP More Useful for Some Other Navies
In the
case of the latest Chinese Yuan class 039A/041
submarines which use [covertly acquired, indigenous and/or bought] Stirling AIP and LABs, the situation seems to be a bit
different form Japanese submarines. These Chinese submarines are intended to be mainly operated in the East
China Sea [and use this inter-active
sea depth map] which is mostly very shallow (almost three-fourths of the
sea is less than 200m). There, China’s Stirling
AIP-LABs system is still effective.
For the same reason, Sweden’s SAAB Gotlands and future A26s are/will be effective in the mostly shallow Baltic Sea. [Pete Comment: Also missions in the Baltic can be very short so Swedish sub’s can completely use their AIP with no LABs needed. Singapore which is using Stirling and soon German AIP on the new Type 218s may also enjoy only-need-AIP operations.]
For the same reason, Sweden’s SAAB Gotlands and future A26s are/will be effective in the mostly shallow Baltic Sea. [Pete Comment: Also missions in the Baltic can be very short so Swedish sub’s can completely use their AIP with no LABs needed. Singapore which is using Stirling and soon German AIP on the new Type 218s may also enjoy only-need-AIP operations.]
Also the recovered heat from the combustion gases of Stirling engines can be used for heating of LIBs to avoid thermal runaway at low temperatures. Cold sea (eg. North Sea and Baltic) users benefit most from the recovery-heat differential nature of AIP. Potential users include the Netherlands' Walrus Replacement, German, Norwegian Type 212A/CD and, of course Swedish A26s.
Though France’s Naval Group and German TKMS have already reported interest and some development of LIBs for submarine (probably most in collaboration with SAFT) Sweden’s SAAB, has not said much about adopting LIBs.
TABLE for SORYU & Oyashio Program as at November 9, 2018
SS
No.
Diesel Type Motor |
Build No
Name
|
Pennant
No.
|
MoF approved amount ¥
Billions FY |
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
-ched
|
Commi
ssioned |
Built
By
|
8105 Oyashio
|
SS-590/ TS3608
|
¥52.2B FY1993
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
| |
6SS-15SS
|
8106
-8115
various
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
|
LABs only
|
15SS Feb
2004
|
15SS
Nov
2006
|
15SS
Mar 2008
|
MHI
&
KHI
|
16SS
|
8116
Sōryū
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
2009
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
Unryū
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
2010
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
Hakuryū
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
2011
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
Kenryū
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
2012
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
Zuiryū
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
2013
|
MHI
|
No 21SS
|
No 21SS built
| |||||||
22SS
|
8121
Kokuryū
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
2015
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
Jinryu
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
7 Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
Sekiryū
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
KHI
| |||
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
22 Oct 2013
|
12 Oct 2016
|
MHI
| |
26SS
end of SMC-8s |
SS-510
|
LABs + AIP
|
2014
|
6 Nov 2017
|
Mar 2019?
|
KHI
| ||
27SS First
|
SS-511
|
LIBs only
(NCA type) |
2015
|
4 Oct
2018 |
Mar
2020?
|
MHI
| ||
28SS Second
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
|
LIBs only
(NCA type?) |
2016?
|
Oct 2019?
|
Mar 2021?
|
KHI
|
29SS First Soryu Mark 3
SMC-9?
|
8128
|
?
|
¥76B FY2017
|
LIBs only?
|
?
|
?
|
2023?
|
MHI?
|
8029?
|
?
|
¥71.5B FY2018
|
LIBs only?
|
?
|
?
|
2024?
|
KHI?
|
Table from information exclusively provided to Submarine Matters. LABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = Lithium-ion Batteries. ¥***B = Billion Yen. MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, KHI = Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation of Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
---Thankyou Anonymous (with further translation and some [bracketed] comments by Pete).
6 comments:
Hi Pete
Full LIB system was adopted in Soryu Mark II instead of Stirling AIP-LIBsystem, presumably because of i) weight and balance change by consumption of LOx [1], ii) low output and iii) limitation of diving depth (200m) in Stirling AIP-LIB of Soryu Mark I. But, I do not think high price of LIBs affects on the selection of full-LIBs or Stirling AIP-LIBs, because Stirling AIP is also very expensive.
[1] Combat Technology of Submarine, 2015, H.Yamaichi. Ex-captain of JS Setoshio (SS-575, fierst Setoshio) and ex-professor of National Defense Academy of Japan. “Weight of goods (water, food, etc) is strictly controlled in submarine.”
According to MoD, exchange of Stirling AIP-LABs by LIBs provides longer submerge. In simple thinking, this statement seems to be faulse because energy from Stirling AIP is nearly 100MWh larger than that from LIBs (50Mw).
But, if Stirling AIP-LIBs Soryu is operated under depth of 200m, submarine operation is controlled by LABs. Japanese submarines are operated in the Sea of Japan and West Pacific Ocean which are much deeper than 200m, and in the situation, LIBs Soryu may shows longer submerge period than AIP-LABs Soryu. MoD selects LIBs Soryu for the full range operation of depth.
Bby repeating of charge in a calm sea, Soryu Mark II can be operated for longer period than Soryu Mark I whose operation period is controlled by amount of LOx.
In the case of latest Chinese 039 submarines for which Stirling AIP-LABs are adopted, the situation seems to be a bit different form Japanese submarines. These Chinese submaines are intended the operation in the East China Sea [2] which is largely shallow (almost three-fourths of the sea is less than 200 m, and its average depth is 350 m). Then, Stirling AIP-LABs system is still effective.
For the same reason, SAAB A26 is effective in shallow Baltic Sea. Stirling AIP seems to compatible LIBs. LIBs is used for operation under depth of 200m, and Stirling AIP improves endurance in shallw water and the recovered heat from the combustion gases of Stirling engine can be used for heating of LIBs to avoid thermal runaway at low temparature. Warlus, 212A/CD and A26 are used in cold sea such as the North Sea or the Baltic Sea.
Though Naval Group and TKMS have already reported LIBs for submarine as a result of collaboration with SAFT, the development by SAAB is yet reported.
[2] https://www.britannica.com/place/East-China-Sea
Regards
I don't think that it's any problem to install LIBs if the buyer wants it, I have seen a video where it is mention, cannot find it now and don't remember if it was in Swedish or English.
As the production method do allow easy functional adds or replacements as can been seen in Saab's annual submarine seminar 2017 like the vertical launching for missiles module, Polish requirement)
The presentation
/Kjell
Thanks /Kjell
I see no mention of LIBs unfortunately in what you've kindly provided, ie: "Saab's annual submarine seminar 2017" or "The presentation" which has slides of the seminar.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
Indian Navy is seriously considering introduction of LIBs into submarine. She is very interested in Lithium Titanate (LTO, SCiB™ by Toshiba) [1] and expects that very good bilateral relationship between India and Japan will contribute to technology tranfer of SCiB from Japan to India. If India requests the said technology transfer, reject the request may be difficult because Japan had already proposed SCiB-submarine to Australia.
In Euronaval 2018, TKMS Showed Li Ion Battery Prototype for SSK such as 212CD [2]. Details are unknown, but, we can estimate some features of this Prototype. As TKMS co-developed LIBs with SAFT, the Prototye is LPF (voltage 3.2-3.3V, capacity 90-120Wh/kg, cycle life 1000-2000, safest next to LTO). As the Prototype is intended application in 212CD, dimension of the Prototype is as same as Exide-made LABs currently used for 212A. Presumably, total enenegy density of the Prototype in 212CD is 2-3 times higher than LABs in 212A resulting in better indiscretion ratio and high speed performance.
Proposal of LIBs-212CD for the ORKA program of Poland is not clear, but, I believe TKMS will propose FC-LIB submarine for the tender of Warlus replacement program of Netherland, because defeat in Warlus replacement may deliver final blow against TKMS. Naval Group will also propose LIB submarine.
Unless SAAB proposes LIB Warlus-concept, winning of SAAB in the tender may be difficult. But, developmental status of LIBs for submarine by SAAB is yet reported. If technology transfer of LIBs from Toshiba/Japan to SAAB/Sweden is conducted, SAAB can propose LIB (SCiB™) Warlus-concept. Sweden is friendly country of Japan and relation between SAAB and Japan MoD is quite well. Abe administration is trying to export weapon and Toshiba is starving money.
[1] Indian Navy pointed out following advantages of SCiB™ : i)safety of minimal heat generated from internal shorting, ii) long life of 12,000 cycle life, iii) recharging rapid in 6min, iv) instant and high output of large current, v) wide effective SOC (state of charge) range which provides large capacity, and vi) low temperature performance which permits operation even at -30C. (Indian Navy says) “Japan and India share a lot of common interests as well as the challenge posed by its neighbouring nations. The current government dispensation at both these countries share friendly relationship and personal bonhomie at the leadership levels. “
[2] https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/naval-exhibitions/2018/euronaval-2018/6606-euronaval-2018-tkms-showcasing-li-ion-battery-prototype-for-ssk.html
regards
Sorry but the only video I found is in Swedish and in the Q&A section at the end, the second last question and the answer is that they are looking at LIBs, the actual question was the battery technology will be developted what will then happen with the Stirling technology? And he think the combination will work LIB Stirling will work perfect together Stirling taking the low speed and LIB the higher speed. So only a possible battery change. He also mention that they are looking at other AIP technologies the whole time but the Stirling will at least be around for the next 20 years.
And the very last question is about Australia :)
Something new about the A26 can maybe be presented at Saab Capital Market Day as it will take place in Karlskrona and it will be sent on the web 15 November 10.00, maybe hard for you to see due to the time difference, but it will be available on the web afterwards.
Link with details.
/Kjell
Thanks /Kjell [at 12/11/18 8:10 AM]
As the video you found https://youtu.be/x-uzLUEZiT8 is in Swedish your description is very useful, where you say:
"the second last question and the answer is that [SAAB] are looking at LIBs.
The actual question was [what] battery technology will be developed [and then] what will then happen with the Stirling technology?
[The speaker] thinks the combination [of Stirling taking the low speed and LIB the higher speed] will work work perfect together. "So only a possible battery change."
[The speaker] also mentioned that [SAAB is] looking at other AIP technologies the whole time but the Stirling will at least be around for the next 20 years." Thanks Anonymous.
Later today Submarine Matters will be publishing an article which links Japanese submarine LIBs with SAAB.
Regards
Pete
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