PETE COMMENT
The estimated Mechanical output of 3100 kW (or 3.100 MW) for the 12V25/31S in the future 29SS (which can be called Soryu Mk. 3 see Table B.) represents an even larger improvement.
Note [1] (below) that these early diesels were built by KAWASAKI under licence from MAN, while [2] diesels since 1990 have been KAWASAKI's design and licence.
For Australia's Future Submarine a broader and continuing KAWASAKI-MAN relationship, may allow Naval Group access via MAN to the Soryu's high power 2.280 MW 12V25/25SB or the Soryu Mk.3's (estimated) 3.100 MW 12V25/31S.
KAWASAKI-MAN's relationship can be seen here: "Kawasaki’s manufacture of marine diesel engines began with a licensing agreement with Germany’s MAN in 1911. Following the merger of MAN and Denmark’s B&W in 1981, Kawasaki renewed the agreement and began producing Kawasaki-MAN B&W 2-stroke diesel engines. [By 2006 Kawasaki] delivered enough MAN B&W engines to output over 10 million horsepower."
Also in 2006 "Completed the Kawasaki-MAN B&W 12K98ME, an electronically controlled marine diesel engine (93, 360 PS)."
Table A. List of Diesel Characteristics for
Japanese submarine since 1960
Class
(from Wiki)
|
First commiss-ioned
|
No. of vessels
|
Model [1] or [2]
|
No. of diesels
|
No. of cylinders
|
Bore
mm
|
Stroke
mm
|
Mechanical ouput
kW
|
Electrical outpout
kW
[3]
|
Speed
rpm
|
Oyashio I
|
1960
|
1
|
V8V22/30mAL [1]
|
2
|
16
|
220
|
300
|
993
|
794
|
850
|
Oshio +
|
1965
|
5
|
V8V24/30mMAL
[1]
|
2
|
16
|
240
|
300
|
993
|
794
|
850
|
1971
|
7
|
V8V24/30AMT
|
2
|
16
|
240
|
300
|
1544
|
1235
|
850
|
|
1980
|
10
|
V8V24/30AMT
|
2
|
16
|
240
|
300
|
1544
|
1235
|
850
|
|
1990
|
7
|
12V25/25S
|
2
|
12
|
250
|
250
|
1985
|
1588
|
1200
|
|
II
|
1998
|
11
|
12V25/25S
|
2
|
12
|
250
|
250
|
1985
|
1588
|
1200
|
Mk.1
|
2009
|
11
|
12V25/25SB
|
2
|
12
|
250
|
250
|
2280
|
1824
|
1200
|
29SS Soryu
Mk.3?
|
2024?
|
-
|
12V25/31S [2] [4]
|
2
|
12
|
250
|
310
|
3100
|
2500
|
1200
|
[1] KAWASAKI (under the license of MAN) diesels: V8V22/30mAL, V8V24/30mMAL
and V8V24/30AMT
[2] Wholly KAWASAKI diesels: 12V25/25S, 12V25/25SB and 12V25/31S
[3] Electrical output = mechanical output x the 0.8 power factor
[4] Estimated values.
SS
No.
|
Build No
Name
|
Pennant
No.
|
MoF approved amount ¥
Billions FY |
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
-ched
|
Commi
ssioned |
Built
By
|
5SS Oyashio
|
8105 Oyashio
|
SS-590/ TS3608
|
¥52.2B FY1993
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
|
6SS-15SS
Oyashios
10 subs
|
8106
-8115
various
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
|
LABs only
|
15SS Feb
2004
|
15SS
Nov
2006
|
15SS
Mar 2008
|
MHI
&
KHI
|
16SS
Soryu Mk 1
|
8116
Sōryū
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
2009
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
Unryū
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
2010
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
Hakuryū
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
2011
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
Kenryū
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
2012
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
Zuiryū
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
2013
|
MHI
|
No 21SS
|
No 21SS built
| |||||||
22SS
|
8121
Kokuryū
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
2015
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
Jinryu
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
7 Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
Sekiryū
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
KHI
| |||
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
22 Oct 2013
|
12 Oct 2016
|
Mar? 2018
|
MHI
|
26SS
|
8125
Shoryu |
SS-510
|
LABs + AIP
|
2014
|
6 Nov 2017
|
Mar 2019?
|
KHI
| |
27SS First
Soryu Mk 2
|
8126
|
SS-511
|
LIBs only
|
2015
|
2018?
|
Mar
2020
|
MHI
| |
28SS Second
Soryu Mark 2
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
|
LIBs only
|
2016?
|
2018?
|
Mar 2021?
|
KHI
|
29SS First Soryu Mk 3
(1) (3)
|
8128
|
?
|
¥76B FY2017
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
2023?
|
MHI?
|
30SS Second Soryu Mk 3 (2)
|
8029?
|
?
|
¥71.5B FY2018
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
2024?
|
KHI?
|
Table from information exclusively provided to Submarine Matters. LABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = lithium-ion batteries. ¥***B = Billion Yen. MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, KHI = Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation of Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
---Anonymous and Pete
11 comments:
Hi Pete
Performance of 12V25/31S is reviewed.
The rated output (kW) of AC generator is specified as ---,800,1000, 1200, 1500, 1800, 2000, 2500, ---, and the rated speed of AC generator driven by diesel engine is specified as 900rpm, 1200rpm or 1800rpm.
As data of V8V22/30mAL, V8V24/30mMAL, V8V24/30AMT, 12V25/25S and 12V25/25SB in Table A consist with the above-mentioned specification (see "Electrical output" and "Speed" in Table A), performance of 12V25/31S is estimated to be ca. 2500kW/1200rpm for electrical output (ca. 3100kW/1200rpm for mechanical output).
Regards
Hi Pete
V8V22/30mAL, V8V24/30mMAL and V8V24/30AMT are V16 diesels, not V8 diesels.
Regards
Thanks Anonymous
So I'll keep them as V8V22/30mAL, V8V24/30mMAL and V8V24/30AMT and the number of cylinders as 16.
Regards
Pete
Thanks Anonymous [at 1/2/18 4:55 PM]
I have changed the performance figures for 12V25/31S accordingly.
Regards
Pete
Dear Pete,
I still doubt that Kawasaki is developing 4-stroke Diesel engines:
https://global.kawasaki.com/en/mobility/marine/machinery/4cycle.html
2-stroke Diesel engines are not in use on submarines.
Kawasaki may build the submarine specific add ons.
Regards,
MHalblaub
Hi MHalblaub
The doubts you raise may well be valid.
Due to the "opaque" (murky and secret) nature of submarine diesel development there is much, we, the public, cannot know.
I wonder if Kawasaki and MAN are still sharing submarine diesel development?
It may go down to a matter of degrees. Maybe in Europe MAN is doing 20% of submarine diesel development - then sending the results to Kawasaki - with Kawasaki then doing the main share of development (80%)
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
Relationship between KHI and MAN Diesel & Turbo is maintained quite well.
http://www.khi.co.jp/machinery/news/detail/111024.html
(100th anniversary of technology cooperation on diesel engines with MAN Diesel & Turbo)
KHI commemorates the 100th anniversary this year since it entered into a technical cooperation with Germany 's M.A.N. company (currently, MAN Diesel & Turbo) in 1911 for diesel engines. This is the longest history relationship among companies currently licensed with MAN Diesel & Turbo.
In 1911, when the first contract was signed, the steam engine was still in use for the propultion of merchant ships, and the diesel engine was not used. Our first president Kojiro Matsukata signed a technical agreement with M.A.N. for a submarine use. Though the relationship was temporarily interrupted by the two world wars, we have revived the relationship each time and have reached today.
At the beginning of the contract, we intended the diesel engine for a submarine use, and extended the use to main propultion engines for merchant ships, auxiliary power generation agencies, onshore power generation agencies, power engines for diesel locomotives, etc.
Since 1980, we also manufacture turbochargers under the license of MAN. We line up verious products of MAN Diesel & Turbo including 2cycle diesel engine, 4 cycle diesel engine and turbo charger.
KHI will continue to manufacture reliable, highly efficient and environmentally friendly diesel engines and turbochargers under a strong relationship with MAN Diesel & Turbo.
Regards
Fairbanks Morse are 2 stroke diesel that are used in SSN and SSBN.
KQN
Hi KQN
Yes "Fairbanks Morse are 2 stroke diesel that are used in SSN and SSBN." is certainly in accord with
SubMatt's "US Nuke Sub Backup Diesels - Possible Technology Path for Aus Future Subs" of January 7, 2018
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/australia-should-avoid-another-orphan.html : which indicates:
"An Australian future submarine diesel option that deserves investigation is the Fairbanks-Morse 38ND 8-1/8 diesel being used for backup on USN Ohio, Seawolf and Los Angeles class nuclear subs. See the bottom of http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/marine/ ."
Cheers
Pete
Hi Anonymous [at 2/2/18 5:40 PM]
Thanks for providing http://www.khi.co.jp/machinery/news/detail/111024.html (100th anniversary of technology cooperation on diesel engines with MAN Diesel & Turbo)
I have republished it further translated at "Revised Table of KHI-MAN Diesels for Japanese Submarines" February 5, 2018 at
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2018/02/revised-table-of-khi-man-diesels-for.html
Regards
Pete
Dear Anonymous,
the Fairbanks Morse engine is an opposed piston engine and not a normal 2-stroke Diesel engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks_Morse_38_8-1/8_diesel_engine
As a back up engine for a nuclear powered submarine fuel efficiency is not that important.
I doubt that these engines could comply with EPA rules:
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/marine.php
Regards,
MHalblaub
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