Poland Contemplating Joint Submarine Buy With Norway and Netherlands

European Union (EU) members and joining date up to 2013. Poland (and the 3 uneasily small "Baltic States") only joined the EU in 2004. A joint submarine buy would be an additional way for Poland to signal it is really part of the EU and NATO and not still a satellite state of Putin's Russia. While Norway is not an EU member it is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) which participates in the EU's single market. Norway is also associated with Poland and the Netherlands through their shared NATO membership. Russia owns the Kaliningrad enclave (with its main Baltic Fleet Base) between Poland and Lithuania. 

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Here is a new article from The Nordic Page, September 9, 2015 on the Norwegian viewpoint. The article has some very sensible things to say about replacement submarine buying. 

REUTER's ARTICLE

Reuters, September 6, 2015 reports http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/06/us-poland-nato-submarine-idUSKCN0R60GH20150906 :

"Poland may buy submarines with other NATO members: minister

WARSAW - Poland may join forces with other NATO members such as Norway or the Netherlands to buy submarines in a bid to cut costs, instead of buying them alone, Deputy Defence Minister Czeslaw Mroczek said on Sunday.

The ministry had planned to buy three submarines with delivery set for 2020-25 and at a cost of 7.5 billion zlotys ($2 billion) in a tender due to be launched at the start of this year.

This was postponed when Poland decided to change the contract specification to arm the fleet with maneuvering [cruise] missiles.

"We are considering obtaining submarines, for instance together with Norway or the Netherlands," Mroczek told state news agency PAP.

He said work was being completed on the initial specifications for the fleet. The aim of partnering up with NATO members was to save on costs, PAP reported him as saying.

"From the point of view of the procedure and how we do it - whether in one or two proceedings - will depend on if we buy the submarines alone or as a joint project of two or more NATO members," he said.

According to PAP, French industrial group DCNS, Swedish Saab Kockums and German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems have shown interest in a tender for building the submarines.

…Asked to comment on the deputy minister's announcement, Dutch Defence Ministry spokeswoman Lisa Hartog said the Dutch government was in talks with countries that it cooperates with on naval strategy on replacing its "Walrus" class submarines in the coming years.

"What we're going to be doing, in concrete terms, will only be decided toward the end of this year," Hartog told Reuters.

The Norwegian Defence Ministry spokeswoman Marita Wangberg said Poland could potentially qualify as a partner in the purchase of submarines.

"A future acquisition is yet to be decided, but as part of the process, cooperation with other countries is being assessed. In such cases Poland can be a relevant candidate," Wangberg said.

(Reporting by Adrian Krajewski in Warsaw, Stine Buch Jacobsen in Oslo, and Toby Sterling in Amsterdam; Editing by Raissa Kasolowsky)." See WHOLE ARTICLE.

PETE's COMMENT

It is difficult enough for countries to decide on their own new submarine requirements let alone attempting a joint purchase with other customer countries. That may be one reason why joint purchases so rarely happen. Bilateral or multilateral politico-military bonds help. Poland, Norway and the Netherlands are joined by being members of NATO and Poland and the Netherlands are in the European Union (which includes arms trade issues in common). There is a web of less known arrangements (which special correspondent "Kevin" has identified in Background at the bottom of this post). 

As reported in Submarine Matter's Netherlands Needs New Submarine's Quickly, July 31, 2015, the Netherlands has been contemplating a joint strategy with Norway in procuring replacement submarines. One problem is that these countries have had very different needs - hence bought or built very different submarines. Norway has been an established buyer of (Ula and Kobben class) submarines of 1,000 tons or less while the Netherlands has regularly built submarines of over 2,000 tons (most recently the Walrusses).

In Two A26s Odered by Sweden, July 1, 2015, I commented that a smaller version of Sweden's future A26 might perhaps be exported to Poland (a current Kobben owner) and Norway and larger A26 version to the Netherlands.

Other possible builder-seller countries may be France (marketing Scorpenes) (see the two Youtubes below ) and Germany (marketing Type 210mods, 214s, 216s and possibly 218s).

A Scorpene exhibited by DCNS at MSPO 2015, the International Defence Industry Exhibition,  Kielce, Poland, September 1-4, 2015. DCNS is marketing Scorpenes for Poland's ORKA submarine replacement program. This Scorpene solution (Youtube above) includes a second generation AIP (using fuel cell (diesel fragmenter)) and a long range MBDA's Naval Cruise Missile (NCM) which (important for Poland) has a land attack capability. See Naval Recognition's longer article on this Scorpene solution for Poland.

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The Scorpene 1000 ("900 tons") drawing board design is another Scorpene solution that might be appealing Norway, Poland or other customers internationally. The claim (1 minute, 15 seconds in) of "No equivalent in littoral waters" may have forgotten the 1,000 ton Ula class built by TKMS and owned by Norway.

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KEVIN's BACKROUND ON LAND AND NAVAL FORCE MERGERS IN EUROPE

Kevin from the Netherlands in comments:

-  at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/netherlands-needs-new-submarines-quickly.html and

-  on September 9, 2015 at 11:30 PM at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/poland-contemplating-joint-submarine.html I have placed parts into more correct English:

Submarines

Kevin indicated the Netherlands may prefer to buy submarines from Germany as the German submarines will, at the end of 2015, be under Dutch Admiralty command due to a bilateral agreement outside of NATO or the EU.

He advised that there may possibly be mention of the Dutch (Walrus) submarine replacement program in the Netherland's September 15, 2015 "State of the Kingdom" speech.

He believes it highly unlikely that the Netherlands would want fuel cell AIP because Dutch subs operate without support ships and the hydrogen ingredient of the necessary purity is generally unavailable at ports.

He further states that Dutch submarines can support special forces rather than the Dutch Royal Marine operations.

Wider international naval force command and and structural changes 

Netherlands and Germany

The Dutch and German Armed forces are in the process of merging into one common armed force. This is seen as a precursor to a common EU Army.

The integration of the Dutch and German force`s is desirable but there are difficulties. The German Basic law dictates that the German armed force can be used for defence and peacekeeping only (much like Japan and like Japan they are movements to change that). In contrast the Dutch Constitution dictates that Dutch armed forces need to be used to uphold international law and intervene in humanitarian. More specifically that they need to bomb ISIL/Islamic State.

The Air Mobile Infantry of the Netherlands and Germany are already merged and under German command. There are plans to merge the last of the Dutch tanks [both Germany and the Netherlands use the German made Leopard 2 tank] and artillery with the German counterparts.

+ Belgian forces

Belgian warships were placed under Dutch`s Admiralty command in 1996 (officially the so-called BeNeLux Admiralty) once Luxembourg forces are added. They are based at Den Helder (see map) Netherlands.

+ UK Forces

Kevin advised the Dutch and British expeditionary forces (mainly the Royal Marines of both countries – already closely cooperating) are merging and being placed under British naval command/Admiralty.

They are also arrangements between the Dutch and the British about the use of the Dutch joint amphibious support ship Karel Doorman. And it is possible that in the near future that the Dutch landing dock platforms will also be transferred to the British Admiralty or will be included with de Karel Doornman under the Lancaster House Treaties (a Dutch opt-in).

Kevin's Broader European Alliance Comments

The European F-35 partners are talking about sharing training, maintenance and logistics facilities for the F-35.

European law is complex and full with exemptions due to entry negotiations and the freedom a member state have in interpreting European law

The European Arms trade is documented and regulated by the European Defence Agency (EDA)

The general rule for EU member states is that they should not buy arms outside the EU unless such weapons are unavailable in the EU. If the member wants to buy outside the EU it needs to clear it with the EDA. This is to protect the EU's military industrial complex. Since the Cold War EU member states have cut defence spending to a point that it threatens Europe's capacity to produce its own arms.

If Sweden can sell more fighter planes by buying Brazilian transport planes the EDA will look the other way because this deal will strengthen the European industrial complex.

For the Netherlands, the Dutch airforce is a clone of the USAF [the Netherlands has F-16s, Apache helicopters and is buying Reaper UAVs]. And the Dutch navy is co-developing the [SM-3 anti] ballistic missile (European theatre) shield with the US Navy, so Dutch warships are equipped with VLS. The Dutch cannot get more exemptions from the EDA.

This list supports the reliability of Kevin’s advice.

Pete