July 24, 2015

Japan Looking at UK Help to Win Australian Submarine Competition

on time, on budget at Williamstown dockyard, Victoria, Australia.
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An article by several Reuters reporters indicates "Exclusive: Japan eyes British help to sink German bid for Australian submarine" http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-japan-australia-submarine-exclusive-idUSKCN0PX1FG20150723. The article indicates the Japanese government is in talks with at least two British firms (Babcock International Group and BAE Systems) to help a Japanese consortium win the Australian future submarine competitive evaluation process. Babcock does maintenance work on the Collins and BAE Systems employs 4,500 people in Australia.

The Japanese consortium includes MHI and KHI and the German competitor they wish to beat is TKMS. Japan may wish to boost Australian industrial participation in the project. Japan may also want cooperation from Sweden’s Saab in the Japanese sales campaign. France’s DCNS is also competing.

The Reuters article further reports “According to a company document seen by Reuters, the German bidder TKMS will train local contractors using advanced German manufacturing and production technology and help establish Australia as a naval shipbuilding and repair hub in the Asia-Pacific region.”

“…Australia's Abbot has described Japan as his country's "closest friend in Asia". With the United States also keen to spur friendlier ties between its two key allies in Asia, Tokyo has Washington's backing for made-in-Japan submarines packed with American surveillance, radar and weapons equipment, sources familiar with Washington's thinking told Reuters earlier...” 
See FULL REUTERS ARTICLE.

Pete

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

And, 2 days ago an article showed up in Sweden saying SAAB was contacted by the Japaniese to be a part of the japan offer to provide a better deal than the Germans
https://www.google.se/url?q=http://www.svd.se/ubatsstrid-i-australien-trappas-upp&sa=U&ved=0CBcQqQIoADAEahUKEwjRs9GLyvPGAhWIVywKHaw4Db4&usg=AFQjCNGuX8I-hdDbinsJ2xPQkc6lgBjYGw
Interesting times!
:-D
TTAero

Anonymous said...

So Japan is struggling to find a partner to counter the offer by TKMS.
The last SAAB submarine for Australia was the Collins-class.
The last UK built diesel submarine was the as famous Canadian Victoria-class.
The last UK built nuclear submarine also is not trouble free.

Interesting partners for Japan.

The big point is this:
"There's an awful lot of politicians across the board ... that will not be very politically happy if this A$50 billion life cost sophisticated program goes to solve Japan's deficit problem," TKMS Australia Chairman John White told Reuters.
(from the featured article)

Regards,
MHalblaub

Anonymous said...


Hi Pete

FY2015 Soryu (SS27) and FY2016 Soryu (SS28) will be same type submarine with LIBs and without AIP. But, FY2017 submarine (SS29) will be more improved, and is not Soryu.

By the way, according to Australian Department of Defense, AIP involves carrying supplies of fuel and oxidant which are reacted in an energy conversion device to ultimately produce electrical energy.

Regards
S

Peter Coates said...

Hi TTAero

I wonder how Sweden could help Japan's bid?

Would Sweden:

- want to offer Stirling AIP in a Japanese submarine for Australia or

- negotiate on behalf of Japan to sell Japanesee subs to Australia

Regards

Pete

Peter Coates said...

Hi MHalblaub

One has to see the problem from the point of view of ASC and South Australia - that is how to maximise the amount of Federal Government money spent on subs in South Australia and how to stretch the build time.

To achieve another AWD situation (now 3 destroyers for the price of 6) the mix of companies has to be made as complicated as possible. If Japan adds UK and Swedish companies then a more expensive and longer contract "continuous build by excess" is guaranteed.

The efficiencies that would result from TKMS or DCNS only dealing with BAE in Victoria must be avoided.

And of course the US is the puppet master providing the compulsory combat system when Japan is selected. If Japan hesitates then the US may have to offer a more limited compulsory combat system for TKMS to built the subs. Don't know about DCNS.

Regards

Pete

Peter Coates said...

Hi S

Thanks. I've tried to incorporate "FY2015 Soryu (SS27) and FY2016 Soryu (SS28) will be same type submarine with LIBs and without AIP. But, FY2017 submarine (SS29) will be more improved, and is not Soryu." on the Table at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/soryus-on-lithium-ion-batteries.html . Does the Table look correct?

At which website-link does Australian Department of Defense say "AIP involves carrying supplies of fuel and oxidant which are reacted in an energy conversion device to ultimately produce electrical energy"?

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

1 Correction of table is noted in a bracket. 21SS is a vacant number.
1.1 20SS, Kenryu (20SS, Zuiryu)
1.2 21SS (22SS), 22SS(23SS), 23SS(24SS), 24SS(25SS), 25SS(26SS), 27SS(28SS), 28SS(29SS, LIBs)

2 “Fuel Cell Air Independent Propulsion of Submarines” by Peter L. Mart & Jenny Margeridis, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE, DEFENCE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ORGANISATION,1995, page 1, 3rd paragraph. www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304112

Regards
S

Peter Coates said...

Hi S

1, 1.1 and 1.2 - Thanks for the corrections. I have placed them on the Table at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/soryus-on-lithium-ion-batteries.html . Does it look right now?

2. Regarding “Fuel Cell Air Independent Propulsion of Submarines” by Peter L. Mart & Jenny Margeridis, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE, DEFENCE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ORGANISATION,1995, www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA304112

The ABSTRACT 3rd paragraph states in part:

"Each submarine application must be assessed on the basis of a number of different, and
sometimes competing, criteria which will be weighted differently for different
applications and strategic scenarios. It is concluded, however, that low temperature
fuel cells are generally better suited for submarine applications, with the solid polymer
electrolyte fuel cell having particular advantages."

The second page of the Executive Summary indicates:

"However, it is concluded that the low temperature solid polymer electrolyte fuel cell shows particular advantages for submarine AIP. This is a proven technology undergoing rapid development for
terrestrial applications (and even atmospheric/space applications), and is the fuel cell
system of choice for AIP implementation by both the Federal Republic of Germany and
Canadian navies."

It seems Australia was not interested enough in AIP to fit or retrofit AIP into the Collins submarines. If Australia did want AIP then a greater interest in non-Swedish AIP might have potentialy led to contractual-legal proplems.

In 1995 Kockums which would have backed the Swedish developed Stirling AIP was building Australia's Collins submarines.

The ABSTRACT and Executive Summary indicate a preference by Peter L. Mart and Jenny Margeridis of DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory for the German developed "polymer electrolyte fuel cell". I wonder if that is still the preference of the SEA 1000 evaluation team?

As Japan is no longer aligned with the Stirling for Japan's future subs Japan could perhaps talk with Germany about AIP?

I've also heard Stirling AIP declines in efficiency or effectiveness in warm air-warm water because the temperature differential is not so great?

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

1 27SS, 28SS and 29SS will equip LIBs without AIP.
2 27SS and 28SS are same submarine and are the prototypes of 29SS, which is next generation submarine.
3 29SS may have following features.
3.1 Improved platform for reduction of vibration. This platform is more impact resistant.
3.2 More effective and powerful snorkel generation system for recharge of LIBs.
3.3 Adoption of next generation sonar system
3.4 Adoption of next generation torpedo, G-RX6.

Regards
S


Peter Coates said...

Hi S [at July 27, 2015 at 11:10 PM]

Thanks. I've made those corrections on the Table at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/soryus-on-lithium-ion-batteries.html .

I have also located those Next-Generation Submarine (29SS) details at http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/research/gijutu_senpa_en.html

Regards

Pete