I'm publishing news about subs and other issues at a slower tempo. Unlike most advanced countries Australian submarine changes are slow: first LOTE by 2030? 1 used Virginia by 2036 or later? But missiles and novel warheads always tempt. Shawn C and Gessler are welcome to post articles on SubMatts. Cheers Pete
February 6, 2021
[MTU?] reluctant to supply diesels for future Pak Subs
The following very brief article is about German diesels for submarine [MTU being the one and only German maker?] which might not be supplied for Pakistan's future submarines.
I doubt if the germans can permanently hold off... I think it is not such a big issue
Compared to the 2010 doc below, the engine choice has narrowed as Paxman and Pielstick are MAN owned which leaves a duopoly of MTU and MAN with MTU enjoying strength...e.g. Indian scorpenes use MAN supplied DCNS installed Pielstick.
As technology of MTU diesel for submarine is protected by a bunch of patents, its imitation is difficult without violation of the patent law. But, China does not respect the law as shown [1]. In the case of diesels in submarine, third parties except customer and supplier cannot prove the violation of the law.
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Russia-up-in-arms-over-Chinese-theft-of-military-technology “MOSCOW -- In a rare public display of frustration between Moscow and Beijing, Russian state defense conglomerate Rostec accused China of illegally copying a broad range of Russian weaponry and other military hardware.”
Re your "I doubt if the Germans can permanently hold off". True.
For Germany/MTU/MAN, given China is a big marine engine customer, I'd say the pause on submarine engines end-used by Pakistan will be temporary. See importance of China as a MTU customer https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/06/german-diesel-engines-and-aip-for.html .
Thanks for http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf a very well written, enlightening paper.
Oh the Hedemora for Collins decision...#$&@$$$
Apparently Naval Group is doing the right thing by using MTUs for the Attack class. Maybe MTU 4000s or 396s see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/04/australias-attack-class-submarine.html
Yes MTU's patents may slow down supply of MTU 4000s or 396s for Pakistani subs.
BUT note Rolls-Royce and China Yuchai Jointly Produce MTU Engines https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rolls-royce-and-china-yuchai-to-jointly-produce-mtu-engines-300222849.html - China Yuchai International and Rolls-Royce Power Systems formed a joint venture in China - Producing MTU 4000 (good for submarines etc) engines from 2017 in Yulin, China - Capacity is up to 1,500 engines a year with components produced in Germany and China
I think Chinese produced MTU engines may already be used in Chinese Song and Yuan class submarines https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/03/german-russian-dm-185-submarine-diesel.html .
It is 8 Yuan class variants that China is building/supplying parts for Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#Export.
4 comments:
I doubt if the germans can permanently hold off... I think it is not such a big issue
Compared to the 2010 doc below, the engine choice has narrowed as Paxman and Pielstick are MAN owned which leaves a duopoly of MTU and MAN with MTU enjoying strength...e.g. Indian scorpenes use MAN supplied DCNS installed Pielstick.
http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf
https://www.hedemoratd.com/ (might ring a bell to Ozzies as it is used in the Collins Class)
PS: The timesnow tends to be quite shrill and frankly sensationalist...so I would not take them very seriously...
Hi Pete
As technology of MTU diesel for submarine is protected by a bunch of patents, its imitation is difficult without violation of the patent law. But, China does not respect the law as shown [1]. In the case of diesels in submarine, third parties except customer and supplier cannot prove the violation of the law.
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Russia-up-in-arms-over-Chinese-theft-of-military-technology
“MOSCOW -- In a rare public display of frustration between Moscow and Beijing, Russian state defense conglomerate Rostec accused China of illegally copying a broad range of Russian weaponry and other military hardware.”
Regards
Hi GhalibKabir [at February 8, 2021 at 7:24 PM]
Re your "I doubt if the Germans can permanently hold off". True.
For Germany/MTU/MAN, given China is a big marine engine customer, I'd say the pause on submarine engines end-used by Pakistan will be temporary. See importance of China as a MTU customer https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/06/german-diesel-engines-and-aip-for.html .
Thanks for http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf a very well written, enlightening paper.
Oh the Hedemora for Collins decision...#$&@$$$
Apparently Naval Group is doing the right thing by using MTUs for the Attack class. Maybe MTU 4000s or 396s see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/04/australias-attack-class-submarine.html
Regards
Pete
Hi Anonymous [at February 9, 2021 at 9:25 AM]
Yes MTU's patents may slow down supply of MTU 4000s or 396s for Pakistani subs.
BUT note Rolls-Royce and China Yuchai Jointly Produce MTU Engines https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rolls-royce-and-china-yuchai-to-jointly-produce-mtu-engines-300222849.html
- China Yuchai International and Rolls-Royce Power Systems formed a joint venture in China
- Producing MTU 4000 (good for submarines etc) engines from 2017 in Yulin, China
- Capacity is up to 1,500 engines a year with components produced in Germany and China
I think Chinese produced MTU engines may already be used in Chinese Song and Yuan class submarines https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/03/german-russian-dm-185-submarine-diesel.html .
It is 8 Yuan class variants that China is building/supplying parts for Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#Export.
Regards
Pete
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