On January 9, 2020 at 3:14 AM Nicky asked "Hey Pete. What's your take on this. Looks like Argentina is interested
in buying the Ula class SSK from Norway. [See] "Argentina: Estudian la compra de dos submarinos noruegos
clase 'Ula'"
Thanks Nicky for https://www.elsnorkel.com/2020/01/argentina-estudian-la-compra-de-dos-submarinos-noruegos-clase-ula.html about Argentina, Germany and Norway studying the possible Argentine purchase of two 1,000 ton Norwegian Ula class short range submarines.
One problem is the Ulas have been active for 30 years, making them quite old - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula-class_submarine#Vessel_list . After the sinking of the very old ARA San Juan in 2017 many in the Argentine politico-military complex and the public may not be enthusiastic about the Argentine Navy buying subs that are already old - therefore more potentially accident prone.
Another problem is Norway's alliance relations with fellow NATO members, Britain and the US. Britain is in a tense dispute with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute .
The British (and US) may pressure Norway not to export Ula submarines to Argentina. The Falklands/Malvinas islands dispute, of course, resulted in an actual war between Argentina and Britain in 1982 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War . This war put US - Latin America relations under pressure because the US was forced to militarily choose to back Britain in intelligence and supply of some high tech equipment terms (eg. more modern Sidewinder missiles used by Britain Harrier carrier jets (see paragraphs 10 to 12))..
The British saw the Argentine submarine force as very threatening in 1982 and at other times. While the Argentinians found the British submarine force to be deadly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Sinking_of_ARA_General_Belgrano .
On the other hand the British may feel better about Argentina getting very old, more easily detectable, Ula submarines, rather than new, more potent, submarines. Also Norway and other Ula component suppliers and upgraders might be expected to leak vital Ula characteristics and vulnerabilities to Britain...
Pete
Pete's Response
Thanks Nicky for https://www.elsnorkel.com/2020/01/argentina-estudian-la-compra-de-dos-submarinos-noruegos-clase-ula.html about Argentina, Germany and Norway studying the possible Argentine purchase of two 1,000 ton Norwegian Ula class short range submarines.
One problem is the Ulas have been active for 30 years, making them quite old - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula-class_submarine#Vessel_list . After the sinking of the very old ARA San Juan in 2017 many in the Argentine politico-military complex and the public may not be enthusiastic about the Argentine Navy buying subs that are already old - therefore more potentially accident prone.
Another problem is Norway's alliance relations with fellow NATO members, Britain and the US. Britain is in a tense dispute with Argentina over the Falklands/Malvinas islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute .
The British (and US) may pressure Norway not to export Ula submarines to Argentina. The Falklands/Malvinas islands dispute, of course, resulted in an actual war between Argentina and Britain in 1982 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War . This war put US - Latin America relations under pressure because the US was forced to militarily choose to back Britain in intelligence and supply of some high tech equipment terms (eg. more modern Sidewinder missiles used by Britain Harrier carrier jets (see paragraphs 10 to 12))..
The British saw the Argentine submarine force as very threatening in 1982 and at other times. While the Argentinians found the British submarine force to be deadly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Sinking_of_ARA_General_Belgrano .
On the other hand the British may feel better about Argentina getting very old, more easily detectable, Ula submarines, rather than new, more potent, submarines. Also Norway and other Ula component suppliers and upgraders might be expected to leak vital Ula characteristics and vulnerabilities to Britain...
Pete
6 comments:
HI Pete,
My Take on this is that if Argentina can't afford new, the Ula class SSK could be one option. The other is they can make a deal with China on the Yuan class SSK or the Improved Kilo class SSK.
Hi Pete,
It seems that Norway is planning to phase out 2 subs out of their 6 from 2022 and the others needs some updates to keep up to until the new subs arrive.
The original plan was to get the first sub late 2026 but that will most probably be later as there is still issues to be sorted out against TKMS.
/Kjell
Dear Pete,
good to read from you again.
I doubt US or UK have more trouble with old Ula-class submarines than with brand new TR-1700 right after the Falkands War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-1700-class_submarine
Regards,
MHalblaub
Hi Nicky
As Argentina remains in the US's Western Hemisphere (neo Monroe Doctrine) backyard it is highly unlikely the US would permit Argentina to acquire Russian or Chinese subs.
Cheers
Pete
Hi /Kjell [at January 14, 2020 at 7:43 PM]
Thanks for your info about the delay in Norway acquiring TKMS Type 212CDs.
And thanks for the Norwegian (right click mouse translatable to English) reference "Norway's new submarines are being delayed" at https://www.aldrimer.no/norges-nye-ubater-blir-forsinket/
Cheers
Pete
Hi MHalblaub [at January 15, 2020 at 9:06 PM]
In retrospect your
"doubt US or UK have more trouble with old Ula-class submarines than with brand new TR-1700 right after the Falkands War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-1700-class_submarine "
is very valid.
The TR-1700s were far more formidable than far smaller Ula class subs.
Still many Argentinian public, politicians, officials and naval officers/crew would be unenthusiastic about acquiring 30 year old Ulas after the old ARA San Juan sank (for reasons still not fully clear).
Regards
Pete
Post a Comment