With the Popular Mechanics yesterday prophesizing a radically new Japanese submarine class, at 29SS, I can also amuse:
29SS (see Table below) with a little more color, might be the lead boat in the new Japanese Kamikaze
(神風 - "Divine Wind") class, but I doubt it, for reasons of politics and good taste. The Kamikaze were 2 "divine winds" or storms said to have saved Japan in the 13th century from 2 Mongol/Chinese fleets. This clearly has renewed relevance to the Chinese naval threat to Japan today. Such mythical winds follow Japan's Oyashio (mythical currents ) and Soryu (mythical dragon) class submarines.
Japan relied on (overly) brave Japanese pilots in Kamikaze aircraft to sink or damage allied ships in WWII, in part because of inadequate use of Japan's submarine force (see page 2, paragraph 1 of this source).
Popular Mechanics (is turns out, incorrect. article) claimed:
PETE COMMENT
29SS (see Table below) with a little more color, might be the lead boat in the new Japanese Kamikaze
(神風 - "Divine Wind") class, but I doubt it, for reasons of politics and good taste. The Kamikaze were 2 "divine winds" or storms said to have saved Japan in the 13th century from 2 Mongol/Chinese fleets. This clearly has renewed relevance to the Chinese naval threat to Japan today. Such mythical winds follow Japan's Oyashio (mythical currents ) and Soryu (mythical dragon) class submarines.
Japan relied on (overly) brave Japanese pilots in Kamikaze aircraft to sink or damage allied ships in WWII, in part because of inadequate use of Japan's submarine force (see page 2, paragraph 1 of this source).
Popular Mechanics (is turns out, incorrect. article) claimed:
"... 29SS retains the general hull form of earlier submarines but with some important changes. The sail is substantially reduced and blended into the hull, which should reduce hydrodynamic drag. This will make the submarine quieter, perhaps a little faster, but also more energy efficient. Non-nuclear powered submarines, operating underwater under combat conditions, must carefully manage their power or risk being forced to surface. The dive planes have also been moved from what’s left of the sail to the hull.
...The research and development phase will take place from 2025 to 2028, and the first ship of this class will probably hit the water around 2031."
PETE COMMENT
Instead of a radically new Japanese class of submarines from 29SS (with an almost Russian Alfa SSN-like blended sail) Japan works on gradual, iterative improvements, boat by boat.
This has meant Japan is now producing the Taigei-class (29SS), an evolution of the Soryu Mk IIs. I suggest Canberra readers see much more on the Taigei by placing Taigei in the top-left search box.
TABLE. Japanese Soryu and Oyashio Programs as at June 27, 2019
SS
No.
Diesel Type
Motor
|
Build No
Name
|
Pennant
No.
|
MoF approved amount ¥
Billions FY
|
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
-ched
|
Commi
ssioned
|
Built
By
|
5SS Oyashio
|
SS-590/ TS3608
|
¥52.2B FY1993
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
| |
6SS-15SS
Oyashios
10 subs
SMC-7?
|
8106
-8115
various
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
|
LABs only
|
15SS Feb
2004
|
15SS
Nov
2006
|
15SS
Mar 2008
|
MHI
&
KHI
|
16SS
Soryu Mk I
SMC-8
|
8116
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
2009
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
Unryū
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
2010
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
Hakuryū
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
2011
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
Kenryū
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
2012
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
Zuiryū
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
2013
|
MHI
|
No 21SS
|
No 21SS built
| |||||||
22SS
|
8121
Kokuryū
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
2015
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
Jinryu
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
7 Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
Sekiryū
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
KHI
| |||
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
22 Oct 2013
|
12 Oct 2016
|
MHI
| |
26SS
end of SMC-8s
|
8125
|
SS-510
|
LABs + AIP
|
2014
|
6 Nov 2017
|
KHI
| ||
27SS First
Soryu Mk II
diesel
first SMC-8B
motor
|
8126
|
SS-511
|
LIBs only
(NCA type)
|
2015
|
4 Oct
2018
|
Mar
2020?
|
MHI
| |
28SS Second
Soryu Mk II
SMC-8B
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
"2,900t" surfaced |
LIBs only
(NCA type?)
|
2016?
|
Oct 2019?
|
Mar 2021?
|
KHI
|
29SS New Class
SMC-9?
|
8128
|
SS-???
|
¥76B FY2017
large budget rise for sub of larger "3,000t" surfaced class page 3 implies many new features. New class? |
LIBs only
|
MHI
| |||
30SS New Class
|
8029?
|
SS-???
|
¥71.5B FY2018
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
?
|
KHI?
|
Table from information exclusively provided to Submarine Matters. LABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = Lithium-ion Batteries. ¥***B = Billion Yen. MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, KHI = Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation of Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
---
Pete
5 comments:
From a Japanese perspective I seriously doubt that they will christen the new boat as Kamikaze.
They have various other divine names they can select like Byako(白虎）, Houo(鳳凰）, Shoukaku (翔鶴),Suzaku (朱雀) etc.
Why would the JMSDF take a name with such negative incantation with it?
Shoukaku or the Rising Crane has been used christen to an WW2 aircraft carrier so I believe it has a better chance to be used considering the present naming format.
One more thing if it's going to be laid down in the mid to late 2020's then MHI may consider adopting Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction for power;
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nuclear/scientists-in-the-us-and-japan-get-serious-about-lowenergy-nuclear-reactions
Hello Pete,
Granted you are more immersed in this subject, but I'm surprised you're so dire about the effectiveness of AIP/LIB subs.
First, the endurance limitations seem not as much of a problem, as the Japanese subs will be basically operating in Japan's backyard (they do not have to range across Pacific Ocean like in World War II.)
Second, running on battery, with the pumpjet, they coud be quieter than SSNs--especially, Chinese SSNs. So they could expect to detect and get the first shot, then head for home which would hopefully not be far away.
Of course, after the ambush phase of an engagement, they are at risk of being outrun and outmaneuvered by SSNs.
It's interesting the Japanese aren't interested in combing LIB with AIP to help take the edge off the long-distance endurance problem. Probably it takes up too much space and adds to great an expense to be worth it.
Another thing I noticed researching a piece on ASW in the Falkland Wars is that British SSNs were constantly surfacing to receive/transmit intel, scan with periscope, at the expense of their theoretical stealth/endurance advantage. Of course that may reflect context-specific technology and doctrine.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Hello Pete,
Granted you are more immersed in this subject, but I'm surprised you're so dire about the effectiveness of AIP/LIB subs.
First, the endurance limitations seem not as much of a problem, as the Japanese subs will be basically operating in Japan's backyard (they do not have to range across Pacific Ocean like in World War II.)
Second, running on battery, with the pumpjet, they coud be quieter than SSNs--especially, Chinese SSNs. So they could expect to detect and get the first shot, then head for home which would hopefully not be far away.
Of course, after the ambush phase of an engagement, they are at risk of being outrun and outmaneuvered by SSNs.
It's interesting the Japanese aren't interested in combing LIB with AIP to help take the edge off the long-distance endurance problem. Probably it takes up too much space and adds to great an expense to be worth it.
Another thing I noticed researching a piece on ASW in the Falkland Wars is that British SSNs were constantly surfacing to receive/transmit intel, scan with periscope, at the expense of their theoretical stealth/endurance advantage. Of course that may reflect context-specific technology and doctrine.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts!
That is not a good name. The wind may be divine but it did not change the final outcome, even in desperation. Are the writings on the wall?
There are some press reports, to be confirmed, that China did actual tests of ballistic anti ship missiles (DF21D?) in the Spratly naval exercises that are going on.
KQN
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