There are many aspects of the latest
India, Pakistan confrontation. There being no submarines showing their hand (so
far) below I am looking at the Pakistan F-16 vs Indian MiG-21 (called “Bison” not
NATO designation “Fishbed” in India).
It would seem that India has made its aging
MiG-21s more formidable by arming them with Soviet/Russian developed air-to-air
missiles (AAMs) that are proving
better than US developed AAMs.
Russia
Today (RT) March 1, 2019 reports:
“Could
Indian MiG-21 have downed Pakistani F-16? Military expert says it’s up to
pilot, not plane
India’s claim that its MiG-21 fighter
jet shot down a more modern Pakistani Air Force F-16 [on Thursday 28 February 2019] seems surprising at first,
but a military expert tells RT there is more to the Indian Air Force than meets
the eye.
The [Indian Air Force] IAF confirmed that one of its MiG-21
fighters downed a PAF F-16 on Thursday, two days after Pakistan said that it
had shot down two Indian jets as tensions continue to mount between the two
nuclear powers over the disputed territory of Kashmir.
News
reports from battle zones often contain “inaccuracies or deliberate disinformation,” but it
doesn’t mean that a MiG-21 couldn’t have hit an F-16, even though the two
planes are of completely “different generations,” Mikhail Khodarenok, military expert and retired colonel
who served in Russian missile defense forces, told RT.
MiG-21 is a third-generation
supersonic jet fighter and interceptor aircraft, which was introduced into the
Soviet military in 1959. The F-16 is a fourth-generation supersonic multirole
fighter, which entered service with the US Air Force almost two decades later.
Obviously, the F-16 has much more advanced
characteristics, including the combat radius of 547 km, compared to 370 km of
MiG-21.
However, Khodarenok explained that the MiG-21-93
‘Bison’ used by the Indian Air Force is
“a largely
modernized version of the aircraft. Its ‘Spear’ radar system allows tracking
down incoming enemy aircraft at a distance of up to 57 kilometers in the front and up to 30
kilometers in the rear. It can track eight targets at the same time, with the quick search and automatic capture of visually observed
targets in close combat mode concluding with the use of guided missiles or
cannon.”
MiG-21 Bison boasts medium-range
R-77 air-to-air self-guided missiles as part of its arsenal. They have a range
of 110 kilometers and can reach the speed of 4250 km/h, while carrying a
22-kilogram warhead, he said.
“So MiG-21-93 could’ve well shot down an F-16.
And could’ve done it easily,” Khodarenok said. “Besides, the best
plane is the one with the best pilot inside. The rest is details.”
ENDs
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Separately, below is a relevant youtube, although it features an AIM-120D AMRAAM, which is more modern and capable than Pakistan’s US supplied AIM-120C-5.
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Separately, below is a relevant youtube, although it features an AIM-120D AMRAAM, which is more modern and capable than Pakistan’s US supplied AIM-120C-5.
9 comments:
The news has nothing to do with submarines, but let it be known an F16 block 50+, an ex Jordanian 2 seater, now Pakistani, was shot down by an obsolete, although upgraded Mig-21 Bison courtesy of the famed R-73. This is the first F16 loss in an air to air dogfight (excluding the Turk F16 shot down by a Greek Mirage 2000). Proof that having the best technology does not always assure a win.
Some folks must be wondering why AMRAAM C5+ and AIM-9x failed to lock on the MIG-21. Things do not go always as well in real life as in a rigged test. This is the 2nd time AIM-9x failed to lock on, recall that it also failed to locked on an equally obsolete SU-22 not so long ago. Given the F-35 does not carry that many AAM, those real life results cannot be very comforting to many.
At least that is some face saving since an AMRAAM did bought down a MIG-21. The bad news is China must have had full access to look at those AMRAAM C5+.
KQN
Important to keep in mind that F-16 kills is not yet confirmed, though circumstantial evidence does suggest it may have occurred.
A number of factors on the MiG-21 vs F-16. Advantage is clearly to the latter which has a better radar and all-round performance (though they have similar top speeds), but the MiG-21 itself has a relatively small radar cross-section, and the Indian MiG-21 Bison has an upgraded Israeli radar. Second MiG-21 was, if stories are correct (BIG if), pursuing the F-16 (thus implying hot engine exhaust facing Indian aircraft) and fired while within visual range using a heat-seeking R-73 missiles, which also can be launched high-off-boresight using helmet-mounted sight. Modern short-range missiles are thought to have very high kill probability. So while even a modernized MiG has some deficiencies in beyond-visual-range warfare, in the WVR scenario described there was no particular reason the kill was improbable.
I have to agree. Most modern WVR missiles are pretty good. They are also usually considerably cheaper, so many more trial launches, tests & live training are possible. There are also questions as to pilot skill level (always a factor), engagement rules (this is not an all out war so each side will have their own, which may also vary depending on what side of the border they & the opposition aircraft is) & level of equipment fitted & operational. eg were IR decoys such as flares fitted & were they used, what missiles was the F16 actually carrying, did it attempt to fire but malfunctioned, was it expecting the Mig to actually fire or just chase it away. Also, how well defined is the border? A fast jet operating too close to a border that is not clearly defined can easily cross over (just because a border is clearly defined on the ground does not necessarily make it so from the air). Normally a radio warning is the outcome, but this lot have been taking potshots for years.
Hi Pete,
You may want to have a look at this and look at what India just inked a deal with Russia on.
India, Russia to Sign $3.3Bln Nuclear Submarine Deal on 7 March - Report
https://sputniknews.com/military/201903041072929806-india-russia-akula-saubmarine/
Thanks Nicky
For Russia's https://sputniknews.com/military/201903041072929806-india-russia-akula-saubmarine/
If the Chakra III India-Russia deal is actually signed Thursday-Friday this week I'll turn it into an article.
Looking at the original India Economic Times article https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-russia-to-ink-3-billion-nuclear-submarine-deal-this-week/articleshow/68248638.cms
"It is believed that the [current] lease of the Chakra II, which is to expire in 2022, could be extended for a five year period till [Chakra III] gets built and tested"
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
It wouldn't surprise me if Russia decided to offer India the Entire fleet of Akula class SSN's. It would give India something to stand on
The pakistanis went real quiet on the second 'Indian' pilot in hospital and from claiming two jets down to one jet. Also the pakistanis have disallowed media from visiting the hit spot many times though contrary open source 70 cm resolution size sat pics somewhat leave an information lacuna.
Also the last communication from the IAF clearly mentioned the R-73 or AA-11 WVR had been selected on the F-16 plus there were a couple of pictures that looked like a block-50 type F-16 engine fallen in the Laam valley in the Nowshera sector.
I assume 100% verification will need India to ideally release its TecSAR or RISAT pictures and for pakistan to clear the cloud on the 'second pilot' (to lay to rest the speculation a PAF pilot was mistaken for an IAF pilot and lynched by kashmiris north of the LoC.
The S-400 should help India somewhat prevent or retard at worst the possibility of SOW or BVRAAM launches from pakistani airspace in the future. pakistan deploying the FD-2000 which is a Chinese S-300 derivative means the opposite is true to an extent too.
Eitherway maintaining a menagerie of terrorists ensured pakistan getting no support for India hitting inside pakistan's legally recognized borders. I don't think pakistan will change its policy one bit, though doing what Modi did was a much needed small step. pakistan's nuclear dog won't bite (I strongly suggest Abhijit Mitra's video on this in youtube) and even if one terrorist did not die, pakistan could not escape noticing its total isolation as none of their 'friends'(China, Saudia etc.) stood up for them.
Hi GhalibKabir
Thanks for that info and views.
The India-Pakistan fog of war is certainly messy.
Regards
Pete
Actually the premise of this hatred is simple and can be encapsulated into two points
1. The base of pakistan's hatred is centuries old racist superiority of strong muslims vs 'weak idol worshiping' hindus. This has driven relentless hatred at the cost of cultural orphanhood, economic penury and geopolitical pariahood. This goes back to at least 1000 AD (glimpses of it can be found in Al-Beruni's excellent book on India written around AD 1030, there is an excellent english translation available on Amazon)
2. Linked to 1, this relentless desire to be seen and treated as India's equal (despite having 1/7 th population and 1/8-1/9 of the economy) means pakistan, since 1985, has embraced a policy of retarding India by any means at its disposal. This takes the form of 3 tier chessboard comprised of Nuclear, Conventional and SubConventional means (NCS). Conventional weakness has ensured pakistan has used subconventional means like terror backed by a nuclear umbrella to endlessly needle India and build a hate filled curriculum.
So tomorrow, even if Modi hands over kashmir and all the rivers on a platter, pakistan will be back day after to again looking for options to retard India. Kashmir is just one symptom. The root disease is the racial religious hatred fanned by pakistan's military.
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