November 14, 2017

German/Italian U-212A/Todaro Class TABLE - 1st Attempt

Below is my first attempt at a German/Italian U-212A/Todaro Class TABLE. Much needs to be added and corrected (especially for "Batch 3" and what may be built for Norway and Poland.

What do you think?

Country
Type/
Name
Pennant No.
Number Built
Propulsion
Advances
Problems
Germany
U212A Batch 1
U31-U34
1 MTU 16V 396, motor is 2.85MW, AIP is 2x120kW 
Larger than Type 206, has AIP, 5 more HWTs


U212A Batch 2
U35-U36
1 MTU 16V 396, motor is 2.85MW, AIP is 2x120kW



U212A Batch 3
U37-U38
 S187-S188
 2
 ?


Italy
Todaro Class Batch 1
1 MTU 16V 396, motor is 2.85MW, AIP is 2x120kW
Larger than Sauro Class, has AIP, 1 more HWT


Todaro Class Batch 2
1 MTU 16V 396, motor is 2.85MW, AIP is 2x120kW



Todaro Class Batch 3
S530-
S531
 2
 ?


Norway?
 U212A
 ?




Poland?
 U212A
 ?





The German TKMS Type 212A. Model courtesy Revell Shop Germany.

Pete

7 comments:

MHalblaub said...

Dear Pete,

according to my knowledge the first batch did have 8 AIP modules of around 35 kW with one additional reserve module.
https://izw.baw.de/publikationen/kolloquien/0/Vortrag_7_Brennstoffzellenantrieb.pdf

Other enhancements against first batch are:
- 4 man diver lock
- x-band satellite communications while submerged (Callisto)
- OMS-100-Optronikmast with SERO-400-Periskop
- air condition is capable for the tropicals
- flank based sonar was replaced by an area based sonar
(source: German wikipedia https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Boot-Klasse_212_A)

The second batch is slightly longer than the first batch: 1.2 m
Generator: 1,050 kW.
Electric engine: 1,700 kW
The Italian wiki says
Generator: 3,120 kW.
Electric engine: 2,850 kW
I have no idea who is right.

MTU says 16V396 has about 2150 kW.
Therefor 1,700 kW generator output seems OK.

Regards,
MHalblaub

Anonymous said...

I am a fan of the type 212. In Bangkok, China CSIC launches a family of midget and small subs. The MS200 looks like a scaled down type 212 at least on the model. But the larger subs all have AIP. Not sure if I should believe what I see, just some models. This is going to be problematic on international sales for France, Germany and especially Russia. I am not saying they are equal but when they will undercut at the low end with low prices, that type of entry strategy will always be affecting other competing designs.
KQN

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

TYPE 212A [1,2,3]

AIP: SIEMENS Polymer-Electrolyte-Membrane Fuel Cells (PEMFC), EZM 34 (34kW) x 8 =272kW, and one spare for failure.
Motor: SIEMENS x1, 1.7 MW
Diesel generator: MTU 396 16V x1, 1200kW(1.2MW)

U31-U34; 7 braded propella
U35- ; 6 braded carbon fiber composite propella

TYPE 214 [2]
AIP: SIEMENS PEMFC, EZM 120 (120kW) x 2 = 240 kW
Motor: SIEMENS Type FR6439-3900KW x 1 = 2.85 MW [4]
Diesel generator: MTU 396 16V x1 or 2, 1200kW or 2400kW

[1] https://izw.baw.de/publikationen/kolloquien/0/Vortrag_7_Brennstoffzellenantrieb.pdf
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20110716070146/http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/Internet/MarineComm/General/Docs/Siemens%20Presents%20Fuel%20Cell%20at%20the%20Advance%20Naval%20Propulsion%20Symposium.pdf
(Fuel Cell Propulsion of Submarines, Dr. Albert E. Hammerschmidt, Siemens AG, Erlangen)

[3] In wikipedia, U31-U36 laided down from 1998 to 2008. But, in 2008, Dr. Hammerschmidt said that EZM34 was superior to EZM120 and that 212A equipped with EZM34s [2]. EZM120 is low cost FC.

Equipment with methanol reforming fuel cell in 212As is yet reported. Due to budget defict, Germany Navy has not enough amount sof spare parts for maintenance providing serious problems such as no 212As in operation. Is budget for evolution of FC from PEMFC to methanol reforming FC ensured?

Peter Coates said...

Hi MHalblaub and Anonymous

Thanks for the information.

I'll add it to the Table (for publishing next week) where the information is the same and put comment notes below it where figures don't agree.

Information that does not agree may sometimes be due to upgrades within 212A Batches 1 and 2 as well as retrofitting of Batch 1 subs to be at the same level of Batch 2 propulsion and electronics.

Extra information is from:

- German Wikipedia https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Boot-Klasse_212_A

- TKMS https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-212a.html, and

- the German Navy http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/start/waffenun/uboote/212a/!ut/p/z1/hY7BDoIwEES_xQPXboWg6K0mGlFiTDARejFFKlRrS0pFP98abkbi3Hb2zWSAQgZUsU5UzAqtmHR3TienRZQcEn_m-8kKExwvl7t1GMbjbTqG4z-AujceEMGQlhxy1zEd7PAdBBTolXXshRptrOQWsfNnIeQ1U6Xke30mvbEBWkld9NOJKoKoAmr4hRtu0MM4u7a2aece9nDJ0VPcRMNLwZA2lYd_hWrdWsi-WWju2RMHoewSMnoDhCEd0w!!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/#Z7_B8LTL2922LF0A0IEENH55I1K20

Due to the large amount of information I've decided to just concentrate of Germany's 212A and not expand on Italy's Todaro class. But I will add some details on Norwegian and Polish interest in 212A.

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

According to official reports of Simens and MTU [1-5], power of diesel generator and proplution motor for 212A and 214 subs are as follows.

212A for German & Italian Navy
Generator: 16V 396 SE84 (1,200kW) x1 = 1.2MW
Propulsion motor: ca.2MW

214
Generator: 16V 396 SE84 (1,200kW) x1 or 2 = 1.2MW or 2.4 MW
Propulsion motor: FR6439-3900kW =ca.4MW

[1]http://www.ew.tu-darmstadt.de/media/ew/G/greenenergyconversion/gec_8.pdf (Source Siemens AG, Germany)
Permasyn for Geman and Italian Navy (rear view, 212A), page 8/20
Assembled Permasyn (oblique front view), page 8/21
Dessemled Permasyn (oblique front view, 212A), page 8/22


[2]https://www.mtu-report.com/Service/News/German-U-boat-equipped-with-MTU-propulsion (MTU report)
“The diesel genset installed in U36 and in other HDW Class 212A submarines is based on a 16V 396 SE84 engine from MTU”
“Series 396 units from MTU are available for submarine applications with delivery outputs from 520 to 1,200 kW.”

[3] http://engine.od.ua/mtu (MTU diesel engines, Spare parts catalogs, Service & Operation Manuals)
MTU 8, 12 and 16 cylinder diesel engines 8V396 SE84, 12V 396S E84, 16V 396 SE84. [2] and [3] mean output of 16V396SE84 being 1,200kW.

[4] http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/applications/marine-defense/submarines/
See, series 396, series 396 generator and 396 submarine.


PF (Effective Power / Electric Power = 0.8, Electric power = output of diesel engine) and energy loss in snorkeling (=10-20%) should be taken into account. In the case of diesel engine with 2000 kW, output of diesel-electic at snorkeling may be as follows:
2000 kW x 0.8 (RF) x 0.8 (snorking effect) = 1240 kW. This result explains [4] well.

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOVIgC-GqQ0 (Siemens Permasyn Motor: The propulsion solution for today's submarines)
See, 0:45/4:02. Output of HDW Class 212 and 214 are ca. 2MW and ca.4MW, respectively. And sacle dowm model is 214 not 212A, meaning 214 is not tandem structure. He said 6MW Premasyn was for CEP sub.

Regards

Peter Coates said...

Hi Anonymous [at 16/11/17 3:28 PM]

Thanks for the information.

I'll use parts for the Submarine Propulsion Table tomorrow

and the German 212A Table (2nd Attempt) next week.

Regards

Pete

Peter Coates said...

Thanks KQN [at 15/11/17 10:40 AM]

I'll write about those new Chinese (mini-small sub) concept designs next week.

Its interesting that South Korea and Germany's TKMS has had similar concepts on offer for some years.

Regards

Pete