1:17 The
proposal for a new type of submarine to replace the Oberon class
submarines began in July 1978, when the RAN director of submarine policy
prepared a paper detailing the need to start considering a replacement for the
6 ageing Oberons with a new class of subs, to be built in
Australia (Aus), supported by Aus
shipyards, equipped with advanced tech, long life-span of greater than 20 years
service, must have peace time (intel gathering, covert insertion, periscope and
electronic monitoring, etc) and hunter killer (mainly torpedo and anti-ship
missile) capability.
2:41 May 1983, development begins. An initial list
of 6 SSK/SSG builders considerd. Also Rockwell proposed a new Combat System (CS)(sensors, database, weapons amounting
to about 30% of project).
3:12 May 1985 German vs Swedish main foreign
contractor designs shortlisted. Rockwell vs Signaal (notional competitor (group
of some US companies)) shortlisted for CS.
Sweden’s Type 471 design and Rockwell’s (always the favoured company’s) CS selected. Budget was A$4 Billion in
1986.
4:34 June 1987, Osborne Ship and Submarine yard
built for all Collins subs to built in Aus (instead of normal practice on
winner (Sweden) building first hull in Sweden).
5:26 Aus’s future submarine class was named in
honour of Vice Admiral Collins (1899-1989) with first of class. HMAS Collins, launched by his widow on August 28,
1993
6:14 Collins class Specs: built 1990-2003, 3,100
tonnes (surfaced), 77m long, 7m beam, 3 x Garden Island-Hedemora HV V18b/15Ub
18 cylinder diesel engines, 3 x Jeumont-Schneider Generators 1,400 KW each. the
GIH diesel engines turn the JS Generators which in turn charge the batteries.
which in turn spin the propeller
7:42 more specs – same as on right sidebar here
9:11 Feb 1990 keel laid, and other milestones. Rockwell’s
advanced CS, with each crew station
meant to see all, was ahead of its computer power time, and was never completed to
specs,
10:25 Construction problems continue including non
release of software for Rockwell CS
11:15 Computer Sciences Corporation takes over CS software development problem.
Integrating 1990s software with 1980s hardware a major headache. Software not
even matured when HMAS Collins goes on sea trials in 1994. See further detail
as CS problems gradually resolved by
CS companies (including Raytheon) used by USN nuclear subs. In fact the AN/BYG-1 Combat System used on Collins and US nuclear subs, will be carried over to the future Attack-class.
[Pete Comment: After CS problems were resolved the Collins Garden Island-Hedemora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedemora_Diesel (a small Swedish company which terminated diesel making around the 1980s) diesel engines' limitations on use remains the Collins class's major problem.
This is a major reason the Attack
class will adopt MTU diesels - a multinational company that supplies diesels to a wide range of civilian and naval ships as well as submarines. ]
12:36 Big Problems with Sea Trials:
- Jive says the contract Aus expected was basically appropriate for a nuclear submarine, ie. silent and reliably operating at high
speed [ie. in top 10% of its submerged speed tempo], over a long range and with months of endurance. [All this was not appropriate for even a standard-long range diesel-electric sub, like a large Brazilian Scorpene or a "around Africa" Israeli Dolphin 2]. So Aus was bound to be disappointed with the Collin's performance.
- the fuel tanks are backfilled with seawater (as intended) BUT some
of that seawater
leaks into diesel engine, stopping compressed diesel fuel from
igniting, but cylinders and pistons would compress. The whole process stopping
engine(s). [This problem has never been completely fixed. Major “sun-roof” cutout of top rear hull
has weakened the pressure hulls of the whole Collins class thus reducing diving
depth. Removal and overhaul of diesels (to remove rust-corrosion, salt, water )
from diesels is required each major overhaul. This makes the total annual overall bill for the Collins subs about A$700 million!]
“During trials of the first
submarines, the propulsion system was found to be prone to failure for a
variety of reasons.[93] Most failures were attributed to the
fifteen-tank diesel fuel system: the tanks were designed to fill with salt
water as they were emptied to maintain neutral buoyancy, but water would regularly enter the engines due
to a combination of poor design, gravity
separation of the fuel and water being insufficient, and operator
error resulting from poor training.[93] Problems were also caused by bacterial
contamination of the diesel fuel, which, along with the salt water, would cause
the fuel pumps to rust and other components to seize.[94] The fuel-related issues were solved by
installing coalescers, improving training and operational procedures,
and adding biocides to the fuel.[94]”
- shaft seals not aligned properly during construction causing
seawater leaks in of up to 984 liters per minute in a deep test dive, almost
sinking Collins. Quick action permitted sub to rapidly move to surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins-class_submarine#Propulsion_system
“Propeller shaft seals were a
significant problem on Collins and Farncomb.[95] Although designed to allow for a leak of 10
litres per hour, during trials it was found that the seals would regularly
misalign and allow hundreds of litres per hour into the boat—during one deep
diving test the flow rate was measured at approximately 1,000 litres a minute.[95] ASC
claimed that solving these problems
could be done by manually adjusting the seals as the submarine dived and rose,
but this would have required a sailor dedicated solely to that task, affecting
efforts to minimise the required number of personnel.[95] It was found that the problem could be
temporarily alleviated by running the propeller in reverse for
100 revolutions, pulling the seal back into alignment, although a
permanent solution could initially not be found, as ASC refused to accept responsibility
for the problem, and the original manufacturer of the seals had closed down.[95] New suppliers were found, with modified
seals fitted to the first two submarines in late 1996, before completely
re-designed seals were fitted to the boats in late 1997, solving the problem.[96]
- Propeller
problems:
“The propellers themselves were
also found to be poorly manufactured, having been shaped by hand, with at least
one cast at the wrong pitch.[97] This was rectified by using a five-axis milling machine for future shaping work and replacing the
miscast propeller.[98] The material used for the propellers was
also found to be weaker than expected, developing fatigue cracks after only a few years of use.[97] Instead of going to Kockums, which had started
to go into decline after the end of the Cold War, the submarine project office
sent the propeller to the United States
Navy for redesigning.[99] Despite the Americans fixing the problems
with the propeller design, resulting in significant performance improvements,
the Swedish company was dissatisfied with the Australian actions; the dispatch
of the propellers was one of the points of contention in the company's legal
action in the mid-2000s against the Australian government over ownership of the intellectual
property rights to the submarine's design.[100]“Bad cavitation problem
causing lengthening of sail.
- Other
propulsion problems: See:
“Other propulsion problems included excessive motor
vibrations at certain speeds which damaged various components (which was
attributed to the removal of a flywheel and
to corrosion caused by the fuel problems), and excessive fuel consumption
in Collins at high speed (found to be caused by manufacturing
problems with the turbines and turbochargers).[101] The
propulsion system was also found to be a secondary source of noise: poor design
of the exhaust mufflers, weight-saving measures in the generator mountings,
and an incorrect voltage supply to the battery compartment exhaust fans were
noise-creating factors found and eliminated during studies by the Defence
Science and Technology Organisation.[102]
In March 2010, the Department of Defence revealed that the generators in five of the submarines were flawed and had to be replaced.[103] The three Australian-made generators aboard each of the five submarines (the generators aboard Collins were French-built, and exhibited no defects) are to be replaced in the submarines as they come in for their next maintenance docking.[103]
- Periscopes and Masts
Periscopes had two problems, the first of
which was shared with the other masts.[104] They were not streamlined;
raising a periscope while moving would create enough drag and turbulence to shake the entire submarine.[105] As with many elements of the
submarine, there were disagreements as to who was responsible for the problem.[105] It was solved by modifying
the masts to redirect the water flow around them (for example, a spiral wrap
was fixed around the head of each periscope).[106]
The periscopes also had problems
with their optics: periscope users reported difficulty in refocusing after
changing magnification, duplication of images, and bands across the field of
vision.[106] These problems were
attributed to RAN demands that the optical view be the first exposed when a
periscope was raised above the water, instead of placing the infrared sensor
and single-pulse radar at the head as on other submarines, requiring the
optical path to be routed around these components.[106] The periscopes were gradually
improved, and were no longer a problem by the time the fast track submarines
entered service.[56]
17:00 July
1996 HMAS Collins commissioned
17:35 - 6 x horizontal torpedo tubes capable of
carrying 22 heavyweight shots, including top mod Mk.48 torpedoes, also Harpoon missiles and UK
mines, no Tomahawk hardware capability. SURTASS towed sonar array, LINK-11 datalink for big picture situational
awareness.
19:22 History of Service. Great Record including October
21, 1999 HMAS Waller inserted Clearance Divers into Oecussi/Ambeno enclave, East Timor.
Lots of exercise sinkings by Collins subs of “enemy” ships and subs (including
Los Angeles class) ,
21:06 In mid 2000s begin some rather early 10 Year Mid-Life Upgrades (totalling 24 months per sub). The Collins class of today much better than Collins class of 2001.
10 comments:
To this day I cannot wrap my head around why Kockums and RAN went with Hedemora Diesel instead of a Pielstick or the go to workhorse good ol' MTU...
That is a bit like kneecapping David Warner with an iron rod and then sending him out to shepherd a 350 run chase....
PS: The utter callousness that tens of millions of Indians have displayed during the pandemic and their utter inability to do something as simple as wearing mask means even a government run by the mighty gods would struggle to supply oxygen and beds and vaccines...
130 million vaccinations in 8 weeks have mostly gone waste thanks an equal number of people roaming around neighborhoods and boarding buses/trains maskless....the police using the cane or fining has not made a dent regarding non-compliance....at this rate the Chinese must wonder why did they bother ingressing into ladakh...this pandemic is the best 'weapon'.
PPS: Of course the election rallies, the 'Kumbh' festival and premature 'victory lap' run instead of ramping up vaccine imports and oxygen production did not help either...now they have woken up 8 weeks too late and all the efforts till now is gone like a drop of piss on a red hot stone...
Hi Pete, how've you been and how's your tooth? :D
I can't say I've followed the Attack-class program (or its media coverage) long enough, and I know that what I'm about a ask is little more than a thought-experiment at this point, so bear with me for asking this question:
What would be your thoughts on a "Scorpene Stretch" design as the RAN's future sub? With the American-designed Combat Management System replacing the SUBTICS & a Pumpjet? I understand that one of the reasons why Australia went with the 'Conventional Barracuda' design was the requirement for much longer endurance given the large transits that would inevitably form part of any Australian submarine operations.
To what extent do you think this need for greater endurance could not have been met by a modified/extended Scorpene?
Personally, do you believe the choice of a clean-sheet 'Conventional Barracuda' design was entirely warranted? When the Australian Govt had decided that they will not be operating any nuclear-powered submarines, the way I see it they had two options on the table going forward:
1) Take an existing (at least on paper) design of an SSN and 'build down' from there.
2) Take an existing design of a Diesel-electric boat and 'build up' from there.
What, in your opinion, was the critical turning point (or pre-existing requirement) that made the Australian Govt decide to go with Option #1 instead of #2 ? Especially given the fact that Option #2 would have been far more affordable, and by extension would have the greatest likelihood of transpiring into a solid program on the ground, AND do so in the shortest time? The economic & employment-related advantages would be apparent in anything that ticks both those boxes.
In case you've already addressed this particular issue before, do let me know with a link to your previous article(s) or comment(s)...I know there's quite a lot of literature online regarding the program but I decided that writing to you may be a more straightforward way of knowing what I wanted to know.
Either way, thanks in advance!
Hi Pete,
It seems the Hedemora Diesel is now owned by an Australian company, it was bought in 2006 by Coote Industrial which renamed to Engenco in 2010.
/Kjell
Hi GhalibKabir
@Apr 20, 2021, 4:45:00 PM
Re your "To this day I cannot wrap my head around why Kockums and RAN went with Hedemora Diesel instead of a Pielstick or the go to workhorse good ol' MTU..." see my response of April 21, 2021 at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/04/why-saab-kockums-excluded-australia.html
Warner? Didn't he get caught https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Warner_(cricketer)#Ball-tampering_incident_and_suspension . I have to admit I don't watch cricket. Only female sports, be they tennis players, beach volly-ballers and figure skaters.
My son is studying vaccine nationalisn, so I'll flick assessment of India's and China's Covid response to him.
Regards
Pete
Hi Gessler [at Apr 21, 2021, 12:33:00 AM]
My dentist drilled 6 fillings - with a slow chunky drill. I haven't visited a dentist in 8 years, so I had it coming. I didn't need anaesthetic, while taking my money my dentist praised, that I've got a very high pain threshold (physically and financially).
The Attack class is a highly political subject for which I have singular views. Its as full of theories and mythology as relativity.
Brazil has a "Scorpene Stretch" about 300 tonnes heavier than the norm, but a much larger leap in beam and length was required for Australia's (Aus) specs.
Aus has carried over the US nuclear sub Combat System (CS), that it uses in the Collins into the Attack design - with Lockheed Martin being the CS integrator. US system great for Pac ocean inter-operability. No French or German CS adopted.
Pumpjet advertised in 2016 as going on the Attacks but many see it as a 20+knots SSN solution which Attacks will hardly ever reach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack-class_submarine
Yep, Long range at about 11knots 80 days endurance advertised. Attacks Largish crew of 60-70 kicks out 31 crew catered for by Scorpenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3%A8ne-class_submarine
A slightly stretched far less modified Japanese Soryu-Taigei had its attraction until Aus changed Prime Ministers. Abbatt was Abe's buddy till Abbott was kicked out. Turnbull was not Abe's buddy.
1) The Attack (Shortfin Barracuda) is a part build-down from the SSN. Its harder to build-down than stretch out.
2) Yes the Japanese Super-Soryu Aus and German stretch of a 209 or 214 into a 216 were stretch outs or build ups.
The whole conundrum of a better "French" presentation by a former Australian Defence Minister's Chief of Staff (quickly allowed to pick up a usually contentious "agent of France" job) leading the Naval Group (was DCNS) sails team to victory.
+ build it slow and expensive to win South Australian votes - what they call pork-barreling in the US - won it for Naval Group. This was against Japan and TKMS who quoted cheaper prices and faster builds.
The Australian Federal Defence money thus could be drip fed to South Australia for votes pre-2016 Federal Election. So "turning point" was the need for the incumbent Liberal-National Coalition Government under Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to win the 2016 Election - in which South Australia was the pivotal swing state.
"economic & employment-related advantages" = votes = electorate/seats victories from South Australia for the Canberra Federal Government.
Previous post along these lines best at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/02/turnbulls-election-winning-sub-deal.html
Cheers
Pete
P.S. "Gessler"
There is certainly a German language correlation of the nickname you (or someone else) have chosen. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gessler
I'll consider you TKMS or even BND till advised otherwise.
Cheers
Pete
@Pete
Guess you have uncovered my secret identity. Should brush up my tradecraft and choose a nickname that doesn't blatantly give away my allegiances.
And I'll let you know, the Merkel administration is not happy with your blog not being in awe of the German submarines over the French/Japanese ones. So better watch out.
Thanks /Kjell
Yep half way down my article https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/04/why-saab-kockums-excluded-australia.html I already reported"
"UNDER AUSTRALIAN OWNERSHIP HEDEMORA HAS IMPROVED - BUT THE COLLINS' PROBLEMS ARE NOT OVER
Some history - Hedemora Diesel is a trademark to the Swedish company Hedemora Turbo & Diesel AB [which] used to produce diesel engines for ships, locomotives, and oil rigs along with backup generators to hospitals. The company later shifted its focus to supply existing engines with spare parts and service. In February 2006 Hedemora Diesel was bought by the Australian company Coote Industrial Ltd.[1] The Collins' diesels are now called Garden Island-Hedemora HV V18b/15Ub (VB210) 18-cylinder diesel motors."
Regards
Pete
Hi Herr Gessler [at Apr 21, 2021, 11:15:00 PM]
Vee alvays k-new "vee hat vays of making you tok" and in that regard "Vilkommen, for you the war is over" :) Und remember "Don't mention... https://youtu.be/yfl6Lu3xQW0?t=7s
My 2 years in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Fallingbostel as a kid in 1965-66, about 10K from the site of Belsen, near biggest local city badly bombed Hanover, were educative. The bloke who stoked the family boiler was kindly enough when his ex-former Wehrmacht mates (Kameraden only 20 years before) weren't looking, but if he was was with them, on the street, he didn't recognise us.
Don't worry my blog is critical of ALL submarine makers - keeping the bastards honest being my job.
To De-Gessler-ize you can I call you "Gus"?
Cheers
Pete
Hi Pete, just found this site. Best by far I have come across. Even people commenting are highly informed. So this is an honest question. With people's knowledge and understanding of submarines, is it possible to make a educated guess in attack class capabilities? I have herd a few things along the way, but would love some smart people to mock up hmas attack with what we know so far. I herd VLS was removed. Also drone docking removed. I also read a 2014 Aus gov release about smx ocean. Even back then dcns was a good choice. Even read smx ocean which is probably more close to attack class design has 2 fuel cell aip. L3 harris website has stealth snort mast. But would love a mock up of power supply estimates, mission profile ect. Like smx ocean continuous transit at 14kns for 7 days. 30 days submerged in patrol. I'm sure someone could paint that picture. Lastly the nuclear debate seems to be timelined at 15 years, but I guess my question could technology increase in 15 years that you could design a sub with battery and fuel cell only? At 60 day endurance? We're not going in patrol on the other side of the world so only food seems the limit to design our subs to. Anyway these are genuine questions that I don't know but would like to know. Seems this is the only place I would find out. Anyway. Thanks again.
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