I publish on subs, other naval, nuclear weapons & broad political issues. Advised Aus, US, France. Aussie sub changes are slow: talk since 2009 rather than actual new subs. The Collins LOTE 2028-2040 might help Australia's sub availability temporarily. XLUUVs also handy. POTUS 2031 may cancel AUKUS Virginia offer due to USN advice it needs all operational SSNs to 2040s to mainly face China. Gessler, Karthik & Shawn C are excellent contributors.
February 6, 2021
[MTU?] reluctant to supply diesels for future Pak Subs
The following very brief article is about German diesels for submarine [MTU being the one and only German maker?] which might not be supplied for Pakistan's future submarines.
I doubt if the germans can permanently hold off... I think it is not such a big issue
Compared to the 2010 doc below, the engine choice has narrowed as Paxman and Pielstick are MAN owned which leaves a duopoly of MTU and MAN with MTU enjoying strength...e.g. Indian scorpenes use MAN supplied DCNS installed Pielstick.
As technology of MTU diesel for submarine is protected by a bunch of patents, its imitation is difficult without violation of the patent law. But, China does not respect the law as shown [1]. In the case of diesels in submarine, third parties except customer and supplier cannot prove the violation of the law.
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Russia-up-in-arms-over-Chinese-theft-of-military-technology “MOSCOW -- In a rare public display of frustration between Moscow and Beijing, Russian state defense conglomerate Rostec accused China of illegally copying a broad range of Russian weaponry and other military hardware.”
Re your "I doubt if the Germans can permanently hold off". True.
For Germany/MTU/MAN, given China is a big marine engine customer, I'd say the pause on submarine engines end-used by Pakistan will be temporary. See importance of China as a MTU customer https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/06/german-diesel-engines-and-aip-for.html .
Thanks for http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf a very well written, enlightening paper.
Oh the Hedemora for Collins decision...#$&@$$$
Apparently Naval Group is doing the right thing by using MTUs for the Attack class. Maybe MTU 4000s or 396s see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/04/australias-attack-class-submarine.html
Yes MTU's patents may slow down supply of MTU 4000s or 396s for Pakistani subs.
BUT note Rolls-Royce and China Yuchai Jointly Produce MTU Engines https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rolls-royce-and-china-yuchai-to-jointly-produce-mtu-engines-300222849.html - China Yuchai International and Rolls-Royce Power Systems formed a joint venture in China - Producing MTU 4000 (good for submarines etc) engines from 2017 in Yulin, China - Capacity is up to 1,500 engines a year with components produced in Germany and China
I think Chinese produced MTU engines may already be used in Chinese Song and Yuan class submarines https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/03/german-russian-dm-185-submarine-diesel.html .
It is 8 Yuan class variants that China is building/supplying parts for Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#Export.
4 comments:
I doubt if the germans can permanently hold off... I think it is not such a big issue
Compared to the 2010 doc below, the engine choice has narrowed as Paxman and Pielstick are MAN owned which leaves a duopoly of MTU and MAN with MTU enjoying strength...e.g. Indian scorpenes use MAN supplied DCNS installed Pielstick.
http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf
https://www.hedemoratd.com/ (might ring a bell to Ozzies as it is used in the Collins Class)
PS: The timesnow tends to be quite shrill and frankly sensationalist...so I would not take them very seriously...
Hi Pete
As technology of MTU diesel for submarine is protected by a bunch of patents, its imitation is difficult without violation of the patent law. But, China does not respect the law as shown [1]. In the case of diesels in submarine, third parties except customer and supplier cannot prove the violation of the law.
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Russia-up-in-arms-over-Chinese-theft-of-military-technology
“MOSCOW -- In a rare public display of frustration between Moscow and Beijing, Russian state defense conglomerate Rostec accused China of illegally copying a broad range of Russian weaponry and other military hardware.”
Regards
Hi GhalibKabir [at February 8, 2021 at 7:24 PM]
Re your "I doubt if the Germans can permanently hold off". True.
For Germany/MTU/MAN, given China is a big marine engine customer, I'd say the pause on submarine engines end-used by Pakistan will be temporary. See importance of China as a MTU customer https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/06/german-diesel-engines-and-aip-for.html .
Thanks for http://bmt-defence.com/media/6097991/BMTDSL-Multiengine-submarine-power-supplies-Pacific10-Jan10.pdf a very well written, enlightening paper.
Oh the Hedemora for Collins decision...#$&@$$$
Apparently Naval Group is doing the right thing by using MTUs for the Attack class. Maybe MTU 4000s or 396s see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/04/australias-attack-class-submarine.html
Regards
Pete
Hi Anonymous [at February 9, 2021 at 9:25 AM]
Yes MTU's patents may slow down supply of MTU 4000s or 396s for Pakistani subs.
BUT note Rolls-Royce and China Yuchai Jointly Produce MTU Engines https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rolls-royce-and-china-yuchai-to-jointly-produce-mtu-engines-300222849.html
- China Yuchai International and Rolls-Royce Power Systems formed a joint venture in China
- Producing MTU 4000 (good for submarines etc) engines from 2017 in Yulin, China
- Capacity is up to 1,500 engines a year with components produced in Germany and China
I think Chinese produced MTU engines may already be used in Chinese Song and Yuan class submarines https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/03/german-russian-dm-185-submarine-diesel.html .
It is 8 Yuan class variants that China is building/supplying parts for Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#Export.
Regards
Pete
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