October 30, 2022

Taigeis: LIBs: More Powerful Kawasaki Diesels: Table

Lithium-ion Batteries (LIBs) can be recharged to a higher total capacity and more quickly than Lead-acid Batteries (LABs). But to do this LIBs require more powerful diesels. So Japan has been installing more powerful Kawasaki diesels in its new Taigei-class submarines. 

Wispywood2344 on September 24, 2022 commented + some additions by Pete:

Japan's Soryu Mk.1s [see table below] are equipped with LABs and use conventional diesel gensets [that are likely 2 x 12V25/25SB diesels, each of  2,120kW = 4,240kW maximum power] see table below]

But the LABs can only absorb 60-70% of maximum diesel power - amounting to 3,700 kW (= 2 x 1,850).

This results in an Indiscretion Ratio (IR) of about 9-10% at an average speed of 4kt. This is without using the Soryu Mk.1's Stirling engine AIP. 

The Taigei-class submarines use LIBs instead of LABs. These LIBs can be recharged to a higher extent than the diesels to LABs 70% rating and more quickly. 

The Taigei's likely 2 x 12V25/31S diesel gensets can be run [at a maximum 5,520kW (= 2 x 2,760) with almost all absorbed by the LIBs. This represents 50% more than the Soryu Mk.1's  previous 12V25/25SBs working with LABs [1].

As a result, LIB charging power is greatly increased and the IR, at an average speed of 4kt, is reduced to about 4-5%. 

Pete Comment

More and more countries are adopting LIBs for their submarines, but to quickly recharge the LIBs to their fullest extent requires much more powerful diesels. The world's most common submarine diesel maker, MTU, might need to learn from Japan's Kawasaki what level of genset power will be required. Will MTU 4000s be powerful enough? 

[1] More informations see Japanese Ministry of Defense's Technical Research and Development Institute (TRDI) specification "New Snorkel Generator System (Part.1)". p.10

Number of LIB/"SLH" Modules Disagreement

In the Table below you will see:

-  agreement between Wispywood2344 and Anonymous on 640 LIB (Japanese codename "SLH") modules for submarines 27SS and 28SS

-  but disagreement between them on the number of LIB/SLH modules for 29SS  and 30SS (Wispywood2344 says 640 and Anonymous says 720).

Pete has noted this disagreement in the Table below. 

TABLE

Submarine Matters' Oyashio-Soryu-Taigei Table, as at March 21, 2023. 

SS
No.
Diesel Type
Motor
Build No
Name
Pennant
No.
MoF approved amount ¥
Billions FY
LABs, LIBs, AIP
Laid Down
Laun
-ched
Commi
ssioned
Built
By
5SS Oyashio
8105 Oyashio
SS-590/ TS3608
¥52.2B FY1993
2 x 12V25/25S 
diesels for all
Oyashio class
(each diesel
2,000kW)
LABs only
 Jan 1994
Oct 1996
Mar 1998
 KHI
6SS-15SS
Oyashios 
10 subs
SMC-7?
8106
-8115
various
SS-591-600
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
LABs only
 15SS Feb
2004
15SS
Nov
2006
15SS
Mar 2008
 MHI
&
KHI
16SS
Dragon
class  Mk I
8116
SS-501
¥60B FY2004 
Mk.1 LAB+AIP Soryus have 2 x Kawasaki 
+ a SMC-8 motor
LABs + AIP
Mar 2005
Dec 2007
Mar
2009
MHI
17SS
8117
Unryū
SS-502
¥58.7B FY2005
LABs + AIP
Mar 2006
Oct 2008
Mar
2010
KHI
18SS
8118
Hakuryū
SS-503
¥56.2 FY2006
LABs + AIP
Feb 2007
Oct 2009
Mar
2011
MHI
19SS
8119
Kenryū
SS-504
¥53B FY2007
LABs + AIP
Mar 2008
Nov 2010
Mar
2012
KHI
20SS
8120
Zuiryū
SS-505
¥51B FY2008
LABs + AIP
Mar 2009
Oct 2011
Mar
2013
MHI
21SS LIBs Concept
Research
Project
No 21SS built. It was an 8 year research project on LIBs. 1st LIBs sub launched was 27SS in 2018.
   


22SS
8121
Kokuryū
SS-506
¥52.8B FY2010
LABs + AIP
Jan 2011
Oct 2013
Mar
2015
KHI
23SS
8122
Jinryu
SS-507
¥54.6B FY2011
LABs + AIP
Feb 2012
Oct 2014
7 Mar 2016
MHI
24SS
8123
Sekiryū
SS-508
¥54.7B FY2012
LABs + AIP
KHI
25SS
8124
SS-509
¥53.1B FY2013
LABs + AIP
22 Oct 2013
12 Oct   2016
MHI
26SS
8125
SS-510
¥51.7B FY2014
last SMC-8 motor
LABs + AIP
2014
6 Nov 2017
KHI
27SS a Soryu
"Mk II" as it
has LIBs. 1st
Soryu Mk II 
8126
Oryū
11th
Soryu
SS-511
¥64.4B FY2015 
with 2 12V25/25SB diesels (totaling 4,240kW) 
SMC-8B motor. [Wispy & Anon
agree it has 640 LIB/SLH modules], other improvements
LIBs only
(SLH type)
Nov
2015
4 Oct
2018
2020
MHI
28SS Soryu
Mk II, 12th &
final Soryu
8127
SS-512
¥63.6B FY2016
"2,950t" surfaced
12V25/25SB diesels
[
Wispy & Anon 
agree
 it has 640 LIB/SLH modules],
LIBs
Jan 2017
KHI
29SS
1st
(surfaced)
8128
Taigei
"Big 
whale
"

Used as
a test
sub. Not
opera-
tional
SS-513
¥76B FY2017 (Heisei 29)
Higher ¥76budget 
may be due to 1st of class many changes. 
2 x
4,240kW)[Wispy says 640 LIB/SLH modules, Anon says 720.]
SLH
LIBs
maybe
960

14 Oct
2020
 
9 Mar 2022
MHI

30SS 
2nd Taigei Class 
8129
Hakugei
"White
whale
"
First
opera-
tional
Taigei

SS-514
¥71.5B FY2018 
(Heisei 30)
says 640 LIB/SLH modules, Anon says 720.]
SLH
LIBs
KHI
01SS 
3rd
Taigei Class
8130
Jingei
"Speedy
whale
"
SLH
LIBs
maybe
960+
2024?
MHI
02SS 
4th
Taigei Class 

SS-516
¥B? FY2020 (Reiwa 02)
Improved SLH LIBS. New
2 x 12V25/31S
diesels (totaling
Impro
ved SLH
LIBs
2020?
2022?
2024?
KHI?
03SS
8131?
SS-517
¥B? FY2021
LIBs 
2021?
2023?
2025?
KHI?
04SS
8132?
SS-518
¥B? FY2022
LIBs
2022?
2024?
2026?
MHI?
05SS 
8133?
SS-519
¥B? FY2023
LIBs
2023?
2025?
2027?
KHI?
06SS
8134?
SS-520
¥B? FY2024
LIBs 
2024?
2026?
2028?
MHI?
07SS 
8135?
SS-521
¥B? FY2025
LIBs
2025?
2027?
2029?
KHI?
08SS 
8136?
SS-522
¥B? FY2026

LIBs
2026?
2028?2030?
MHI?
Key to Table: Table information provided exclusively by Anonymous to Submarine MattersLABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = Lithium-ion Batteries. 
¥***B
 = Billion Yen. MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, KHI = Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation of Kawasaki Heavy Industries. 
---

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

Fuel cells AIPs will not survive to the Li-Ion Batteries revolution on submarines.

Pete said...

Hi Anonymous @Oct 6, 2022, 5:19:00 AM

In general I think you are correct.

Certainly Japan has no longer used Stirling AIP in its LIBs submarines, which are:

- the Soryu Mk.2s Oryu and Toryu, and

- in the Taigei-class.

However South Korea's KSS-III Batch-IIs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSS-III_submarine#Batch-II are expected to use LIBs and probably Fuel Cell AIP. The proposed KSS-III Batch-IIIs may turn out to be nuclear propelled and even nuclear armed - with a delayed completion phase somewhere in the 2030s .

Also Italy's Type 212NFS will use LIBs and Fuel Cell AIP.

Many other Planned/Future LIBs submarines may not use AIP.

Regards Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Research and prototyping of power storage & supply system for submarine has been authorized by Japanese government: (1) system design & prototyping of power storage system (4.2 billion yen) in FY2019–FY2022 (Apr/01/2019-May/31/2023), and (2) prototyping of power supply system (2.9 billion yen) and FY2019–FY2023(Apr/01/2019-May/31/2024).

Judging from various technical information, (1) and (2) might be new battery system such as all-solid-sated battery and new diesel generator respectively.

New technologies (1) and (2) seems to be applied for post Taigei-class submarine.

Regards S

Pete said...

Thanks S

Very interesting.

Pete

Anonymous said...


Hi Pete

(2) in comment (Oct 10, 2022, 7:54:00 PM) does not mean new diesel generator.

MOD describes “Research and prototyping of power storage & supply system for submarine” as follows:

“It is expected to establish technologies for increased capacity of main batteries, high density outfitting of main batteries and power supply system, effective of power conversion, and power saving.”

NDS (National Defense Standards of Japan) suggests power conversion is conversion of direct current (DC) into alternative current (AC). Then, power conversion system of DC (from main batteries) into AC (for propulsion motor) and power supply system might be reviewed in (2).

Regards

Pete said...

Thanks Anonymous @Oct 14, 2022, 1:16:00 PM

For the extra information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taigei-class_submarine#Silent_drive_and_power_storage_(2017) may also be useful.

Cheers Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

As architecture of Soryu MKII equipped with 640 LIBs [wispywood2344] is based on that of Soryu MK I, arrangement of LIB module is irregular (20 rows x 12 lines x 2 horizontal sections + 10 rows x 8 lines x 2 vertical sections).

Architecture of Taigei-class is optimized and Taigei-class might be equipped with 720 LIB modules (30 rows x 12 lines x 2 sections).

Weight of LIB modules of Taigei-class is 561.6 ton (=0.78ton/module x 720 modules) is 62.4 ton heavier than that of Soryu MKII which explains weight increase (+50 ton) of Taigei relative to Soryu MKII with same sized hull.

Regards

Pete said...

Thanks Anonymous @Oct 21, 2022, 10:55:00 AM

I have altered the Oyashio-Soryu-Taigei TABLE accordingly.

Regards Pete

Lee McCurtayne said...

When the Collins was being designed, AIP was considered but didn’t give significant gain to justify their installation, thanks to greater recharge gains already installed. Imagine a greater recharge capability today from one newest Kawasaki Gen set and a maxed out LIB bank, but that is what’s being deliberated, “I Hope”

Pete said...

Hi Lee

So what are you suggesting about Aussie subs, if anything?

Cheers Pete

wispywood2344 said...

Hi Anonymous at [Oct 21, 2022, 10:55:00 AM].

The quantity of LIB modules for the Japanese submarines is specified in the specification document attached to the procurement contract.
I have obtained the LIB specification document of 27SS, but the quantities are blacked out. [1]
However, from the specification document of the 27SS propulsion motor, it is known that 27SS is equipped with 640 LIB modules. [2]

If the quantity of LIB modules had changed after 28SS, the specification would have been revised.
But, In fact, the LIB specification documents for 28SS, 29SS, and 30SS are the SAME VERSION as for 27SS. [3]
Therefore, the first 2 Taigei-class vessels MUST have 640 LIB modules, just like the Soryu Mk2s.

[1]JMSDF specification "Submarine main battery (SLH)", p.1
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/SLH_for_27SS_P_1_s.png
[2]JMSDF Specification "Sumbarine propulsion motor (SMC-8B)", p.9
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/SMC-8B%20P_9_s.png
[3]Summary of the Japanese submarine LIB contract
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/SLH_Contract_Summary_s.png

Regards

wispywood2344

Anonymous said...


Hi Pete and wispywood2344 (Oct 30, 2022, 1:08:00 AM).

I think 29SS/30SS are equipped with 720SLHs (720V), while 27SS/28 with 640SLHs (720V).

(Number of LIBs)
In 29SS, batterie price of LIBs (SLHs) somewhat (+few %) increased more than 27SS/28SS with the same SLHs, suggesting increase in number of SLHs. Usually, price of procurement items goes down temporally to a certain limit due to improve of production.

(Stability and electromagnetic balance of submarine)
In 27SS/28SS, additional 160SLHs (80 SLHs + 80 SLHs, 8 rows x 10 columns x 2 sets?) are arranged in double-decker fashion in MKI LOx section, resulting in increase in height of gravitational center and vertical imbalance of electromagnetism.

(Voltage of SLHs-set)
I think voltage of SLHs (36V for a SLHs) is the same for 27SS/28SS and 29/30SS. In 27SS/28SS, voltage of additional 160SLHs and existing 480SLHs must be same, but existing 480SLHs are arranged in 12 rows x 20 columns x 2 sets. Double folded and direct connected 20 SLHs (36V x 20 =720V) are arranged from bow to stern. In NDS (National Defense Standard of Japan) F8004-2 4.2.12, voltage is specified 340-670V, but F8004-2 is the standard for Soryu MKI and not for LIBs submarine.

(Weight increase of 29/30SS)
Weight of 29/30SS increases 50 ton more than 27/28SS with same dimension, adoption of floating deck cannot explain this increase. If 29/30SS equips with additional 80 SLHs (+ 62.4t = 0.78t x 80), weight increase of 29/30SS can be explained.

Regards

Pete said...

Hi wispywood2344 @Oct 30, 2022, 1:08:00 AM
and
Anonymous @Nov 1, 2022, 11:04:00 AM

Please note in article "Taigeis: LIBs: More Powerful Kawasaki Diesels: Table" at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2022/10/taigeis-libs-with-more-powerful.html

Which is now dated October 30, 2022.

I have added text under "Number of LIB/"SLH" Modules Disagreement"

"In the Table...you will see:

- agreement between Wispywood2344 and Anonymous on 640 LIB (Japanese codename "SLH") modules for submarines 27SS and 28SS

- but disagreement between them on the number of LIB/SLH modules for 29SS and 30SS (Wispywood2344 says 640 and Anonymous says 720)."

I have noted this disagreement in the article Table.

Regards Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Despite difference-of-opinions, anonymous @Nov 1, 2022, 11:04:00 AM highly appreciates wispywood2344.

Regards

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Energy of total SLHs is 62-74MWh and 70-83MWh for Oryu/Toryu,and Taigeis, respectively suggesting maximum endurance to be 9-11days and 10-12days [3].


Calculation:

[1] https://www.gs-yuasa.com/gyt/jp/products/space/
High performance lithium-ion battery for space: energy density 168Wh/kg, 130(W)x50(D)x271(H)mm
Energy density of this battery is ca.20% higher than [2] suggesting energy density of [2] is 140Wh/kg.

[2] https://www.gs-yuasa.com/gyt/jp/products/lithium_l.php
Large lithium-ion battery for space: energy density 140Wh/kg

[3] Estimated energy of submarine (Oryu/Toryu, Taigeis) with SLH (weight 770kg) based on [1] and [2]

If 10% of SLH is used for frame and so on, then energy of SLH is 0.097-0.116MWh
(770kg x 140Wh/kg x 0.000001 MW/W or 770kg x 168Wh/kg x 0.000001 MW/W)

Energy: 62-74MWh [Oryu/Toryu, 640SLHs], 70-83MWh [Taigeis, 720SLHs]
(0.097MWh x 640 or 0.116MWh x 720 for Oryu/Toryu)

If daily energy consumption at surveillance is 6MWh [4] and depth of discharge is 90% for SLH, then maximum endurance is 9-11days [Oryu/Toryu] and 10-12day [Taigeis].
(62MWh / 6MWh x 0.9 or 74MMWh//6MWh x 0.9)

[4] Considering larger sonar system is used, hotel load is set to be 200kW. Energy of propulsion at surveillance is set to be 50kW. Then daily energy consumption is 6MWh (=(200kW+50kW)x24h).

Regards

Pete said...

Thanks Anonymous @Nov 8, 2022, 6:49:00 PM

I've turned this and most of your schematic diagram information into article "Japanese Submarine LIB distributions & other calculations." of November 11, 2022

at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2022/11/finsail-command-room-propulsion-diesel.html

Regards

Pete