For business, political and technical reasons it appears that the Dutch have dropped Germany's TKMS and Spain's Navantia from the Walrus submarine replacement competition. This is for 4 new medium-large conventional submarines, for delivery by the late 2020s-early 2030s.
Meanwhile Navantia has not launched a new submarine since the 1980s Agostas and even those were French designed and mainly French developed. The problems experienced by the not-yet-launched S-80 (aka "Isaac Peral class") have not inspired confidence. Also the possible Spanish strength of advanced SENER-TKMS AIP is not a benefit if the Dutch don't need AIP.
SO WHY IS THE SHORTLIS POSSIBLY REDUCED TO NAVAL GROUP AND SAAB/DAMAN
- a smaller version of the Saab Type 612 design.
So the ongoing Walrus replacement competition throws up many submarine business, political and technical issues and realities.
Pete and Anonymous
Supporting this contention my thanks to Anonymous for the February 20, 2019 comment which provides this link. This is further supported by this Dutch article (right-click mouse to translate).
POSSIBLE DUTCH REQUIREMENTS
For the Walrus replacement I'm estimating the Dutch want to continue to retain performance achievements of the Walrus, which include:
- a 2,200+ tonne (surfaced) submarine for oceanic travel. This is larger than the normal European
1,600 tonne (surfaced) mid-size submarines (adequate for European waters).
- long range 10,000+nm (18,500+km), up to 70 day mission endurance. adequate for:
: Netherlands to the Dutch Caribbean and Return missions and
: Netherlands through the Mediterranean or even around Africa. This is to monitor Middle
East/North African nations/pirates/smugglers/terrorists and Return missions. This is on behalf of
the Western alliance eg. NATO). Such monitoring might be closer inshore than already
over-tasked US SSNs are willing to go.
- submarine size, range and possibly Lithium-ion Batteries (LIBs) supported by a
3 x diesel solution instead of Euro subs 1 or 2 diesels. Three diesels increase safety if one breaks
down on a long mission.
- Complement of 50 to 55 officers and "men" to operate on a 3 watch system to reduce long mission
fatigue, handle some illness, and increase safety by providing larger damage control crew
measures.
- More living space is needed. Some female submariners are expected from 2019 ie. "mixed
crews". The hardship of hot bunking (aka hot racking) is increasingly unacceptable. Also Dutch are
statistically taller - all meaning greater facilities for bunks/showers/toilets are required.
- perhaps retaining the Walrus's no AIP characteristic. The replacement may have no AIP due to
AIP's diminishing utility on long missions. Even the Collins and the newest Soryus fave no AIP.
AIP's LOx and especially Hydrogen are fire/explosion hazards. Buoyancy changes are more major
than usual as LOx is expended. There would be little or no AIP chemical refueling
facilities on long
range missions (eg. in the Dutch Caribbean).
So for Dutch requirements the AIP (even the
most advanced working AIP that Germany-Spain provide) isn't so
important. This might explain why TKMS and Navantia have. according to rumour-int, been
dropped.
Also the rumoured or actual corporate change in
ThyssenKrupp effecting the status of its submarine division is unsettling. Lack of spare parts and perhaps underbudgeting of Germany’s own Type 212A squadron would not have boosted Dutch courage. Concern is even greater in that the
Netherlands wants an extended joint venture with a winning main foreign
supplier.
Naval Group (NG) partnered on February 7, 2019 with Royal IHC (a Dutch ship and other marine components builder) for the submarine competition. NG are used to building Scorpenes and larger nuclear submarines (also now designing the Shortfin). These larger subs are capable of operating further than relatively short European distances. If the Walrus replacement does not require AIP then the lack of operating advanced
AIP on NG subs is not a problem. Hence NG is still on the Dutch reduced
shortlist.
Saab's Stirling AIP may also be of low Dutch interest. However Sweden is significantly not a powerful neighbour (unlike Germany and France). Larger countries sometimes exhibit an overbearing attitude (reflecting economic reality?) inevitably making the small Netherlands a junior partner in a Walrus replacement joint venture.
After Sweden's Saab builds its first 2 x A26 submarines to be delivered in 2022 it will need 2 more in late 2020s to replace the (30yo by 2025) Gotlands, thus making a 4 x A26 force. If the Netherlands' Damen want to work with Saab (see Damen website) to build 4 x even larger Walrus replacement then that represents a fair bit of economic equality with consequent shared decision making.
Maybe Damen is looking at a:
- Saab A26 Oceanic extended range (ER) design, and/or
- a smaller version of the Saab Type 612 design.
Computer Artwork comparing the Dutch Walrus (left) to Saab's A26 Oceanic ER (extended range). (Courtesy Armada International, October 24, 2018)
---
So the ongoing Walrus replacement competition throws up many submarine business, political and technical issues and realities.
Pete and Anonymous
23 comments:
According to marineschepen.nl no discission has been made. The department of Defence will make a recommendation, and cabinet will need to make the decision.
Hi Anonymous [at 1/3/19 8:14 AM]
There are a large number of recent Walrus replacement submarine articles
- see this https://marineschepen.nl/ string
Which article are you talking about?
Regards
Pete
Hi KQN
These sub-continental terrorist, air attacks and shootdowns are getting rather serious.
Lets hope that area commanders don't unilaterally turn to tactical nuclear weapons!
Let alone a larger strategic exchange.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
In operation of AIP, supply, strorage and handling of the chemicals such as LOx, kerosene/diesel, hydrogen should be taken into account [1]. In Caribbean islands (Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten: 10000, 14000, 39000 people) of Netherlands, the chemacals may be available [2]. As loading, handling and storage of hydrogen are much more difficult than those of LOx and kerosene/diesel, SG might be better than PEMFC from the view point of operation in the far remoted area.
[1] LOx and kerosene/diesel are for Stairling Generator (SG), where kerosene is for current SG and diesel is for next generation SG. LOx and hydrogen are for PEMFC.
[2] Oxgen consumption of human per year is estimated to be 300 ton. This amount of oxygen may be stored for medical use in the said islands and can be used for AIP (100-150 ton/operation). Kerosene is jet fuel which available in many airports. Hydrogen is produced and used in Isla oil refinery in Curaçao.
Regards
Hi KQN
I have shifted your Indian-Pakistani Aircraft air-to-air missiles comment to
the latest article "Indian MiG-21 uses Russian missiles to improve chances against Pakistani F-16"
at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2019/03/indiam-mig-21-uses-russian-missiles-to.html
Regards
Pete
Pete,
All European efforts in defence and military consolidation cry for a (modified) 212 or 214 submarine for the Dutch Navy.
212: Germany, Italy, Norway
214: Portugal, Greece, Turkey
Imagine the possibility this offers with regards to training, mixed crews, spare parts and maintenance. If every navy files different types of submarines, it is just ridiculously expensive. Let's put the saved tax payers money to more purposeful projects than warfare.
FYI a NATO video on Italian 212A Submarine https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LI0vUbzJdWU
Hi Pete,
Must have messed up mij link. https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Defensie-we-hebben-nog-geen-keuze-gemaakt-voor-onderzeeboten-150219.html
Where's smoke there's fire. So in the end the rumors may be true. But officially no discission has been made.
Thanks Anonymous [at 1/3/19 6:13 PM]
For finding the link https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Defensie-we-hebben-nog-geen-keuze-gemaakt-voor-onderzeeboten-150219.html
Yes sincee the Walrus's were only midlife upgraded from around 2016-2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walrus-class_submarine#Upgrade_program
it may be years till the Netherlands Government finally announces a shortlist of 2 and then a winner.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete (continued from 1/3/19 3:10 PM)
I do not think SAAB gives up Stirling Generator (SG) in SAAB-Damen submarine, except non-AIP demand by Netherlands. SG is a key selling point for SAAB. If SAAB-Damen submarine without SG loses in the tender, other potential customers might misunderstand that submarine technology level of SAAB is low. Also, SG originated from Konum is quite profitable technology for SAAB.
Regards
I would point out that many large long range d/e subs do not use AIP. The Walrus class has similar range & speed performance to Collins & neither use AIP. LIBs would be a possibility & both SAAB & Naval Group have I believe been talking to Saft. If it is down to just NG with Shortfin & SAAB with A26-ER or T612 variant, then Shortfin does not use AIP as designed & I can’t remember for T612. It won’t make any difference to other customers re AIP if none of the Dutch contenders have it. TKMS are in serious financial difficulties all of their own making. Those buying existing TKMS models are probably safe (German government I think will ensure any subs under construction get completed), but something completely new would be a risk.
In short, if I was to put money on it, I would say Saft LIBs in either NG or SAAB. The little details given from the SAAB offer seems very similar to Collins (no doubt the reason SAAB have been working with ASC). SAAB - 2,900t, 73m X 8m, Collins - 3,100t, 77.4m x 7.8m
Regards
Hi Pete
New HP of SAAB (30min before)
https://saab.com/stories/2019-03/how-the-saab-damen-consortium-will-meet-the-dutch-requirement-in-replacing-the-walrus-class/
SAAB is very confident.
Regards
Dear Anonymous (2/3/19 4:04 PM),
long range performance of a submarine is not the only virtue such type of submarine needs. The submarine has to perform a task at further distances than other submarines but that task is still its main duty. So if a submarine can perform its main task far better with an AIP then there is no doubt about its usefulness.
A submarine with fuel cell AIP can stay submerged for about 3 weeks while traveling. With better batteries you may have to surface after 5 days and recharge for a while. That is a huge difference for being detected.
Regards,
MHalblaub
Hi Pete
Currently, Japan has three kinds of submarine, Oyashio (non-AIP, LABs), Soryu MKI (Stirling AIP, LABs) and underbuilding Soryu MKII (LIBs). Operation period of J-submarine is as long as 70days limited by amount of food [1]. Mission of AIP submarine ends with depletion of oxygen but AIP submarine, but, in Soryu MKII, there is not such limitation and underwater mission is carried out after recharge of LIBs in quiet sea area [2]. Endurance of Soryu MKI is bad thanks to huge LOx tanks for AIP, and imrproved endurance of Soryu MKII will make it female-friendly.
Beam of Collinds-class (7.8m) is slightly largere than that of SAAB-Damen submarine (8m). I believe diameters of pressure hull of the two submarines are same, and difference in beam is due to position and shape of flank array sonars of the two submarines. Last year, ASC has entered into an agreement with SAAB for the provision of a range of services. Experience of ASC in Collins-class not only support A26 but also will be useful for design and building of SAAB-Damen submarine. SAAB-Damen submarine seems to be based on existing and reliable submarine (Collins) platform and .
[1] Range of J-submarine is considerably shorter than Collins-class with same operation period (70 days). Presumably, J-subamarine stays in the bottom of sea for long period and does not need extra fuel.
[2] Ex-submarine commander, M.Kobayashi.
Regards
(Rewrite)
Hi Pete
Currently, Japan has three kinds of submarine, Oyashio (non-AIP, LABs), Soryu MKI (Stirling AIP, LABs) and underbuilding Soryu MKII (non-AIP, LIBs). Operation period of J-submarine is as long as 70days limited by amount of food [1]. Mission of AIP submarine ends with depletion of oxygen, but, in Soryu MKII, there is not such limitation and underwater mission is carried out after recharge of LIBs in quiet sea area [2]. Endurance of Soryu MKI is bad thanks to huge LOx tanks for AIP, and imrproved endurance of Soryu MKII will make it female-friendly.
Beam of Collinds-class (7.8m) is slightly larger than that of SAAB-Damen submarine (8m). I believe diameters of of the two submarines are same, and difference in beam is due to position and shape of flank array sonars of the two submarines. Last year, ASC has entered into an agreement with SAAB for the provision of a range of services. Experience of ASC in Collins-class not only supports A26 but also will be useful for design and building of SAAB-Damen submarine. SAAB-Damen is based on existing and reliable submarine (Collins) platform to some extent.
[1] Range of J-submarine is considerably shorter than Collins-class with same operation period (70 days). Presumably, J-subamarine stays in the bottom of sea for long period and does not need loading of extra fuel, which provides longer length of submarine and consequently increased target strength.
[2] Ex-submarine commander, M.Kobayashi.
Regards
(Rewritten)
Hi Pete
Currently, Japan [J] has three kinds of submarine, Oyashio (non-AIP, LABs), Soryu MKI (Stirling AIP, LABs) and is building Soryu MKII (non-AIP, LIBs). The operational period of J-submarines are as long as 70 days, mainly limited by amount of food [1].
The missions of AIP submarine ends with depletion of oxygen, but, in LIBs only Soryu MKII, there is no such limitation and the underwater mission is carried out after recharge of LIBs in quiet sea area [2]. The endurance of AIP Soryu MKIs are bad thanks to huge LOx tanks for AIP, and improved endurance of Soryu MKII will make it female-friendly.
The beam of the Australian Collins-class (7.8m) is slightly less than that of SAAB-Damen submarine (8m). I believe diameters of of the two submarines are same, and difference in beam is due to position and shape of flank array sonars of the two submarines.
Last year, the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC) entered into an agreement with SAAB for the provision of a range of services. The experience of ASC with the Collins-class not only supports the A26 Project but also will be useful for design and building of the SAAB-Damen submarine. The future SAAB-Damen submarine design will be based on the existing and reliable submarine (Collins) platform to some extent.
[1] The range of J-submarines is considerably shorter than the Collins-class with same operation period (70 days). Presumably, J-subamarines stays in the bottom of sea for long periods and do not need loading of extra fuel, which provides longer length of submarine and consequently increased target strength.
[2] Ex-submarine commander, M.Kobayashi.
Regards
Hi Pete (continued from 3/3/19 2:25 PM)
Pressure hull material, high strength lowcarbon steel BIS 812 EMA and Strenx 700E is used for Collins-class and A26, respectively. BIS 812 EMA and Strenx 700E have the same proof strength (700MPa) but the small difference in content of elements [1]. Though the difference in content of elements may affect on corrosion and faigue of steel, deep insight and extensive experience on BIS 812 EMA hull are quite useful for design and building Strenx 700E hull, especially for SAAB-Damen submarine, with the same diameter.
[1] Content [%] of BIS 812 EMA (Strenx 700E), C 0.14 (0.20), Si 0.25(0.60), Mn0.91(1.60), P 0.010(0.020), S 0.02(0.010), etc.
https://archive.org/stream/DTIC_ADA267044/DTIC_ADA267044_djvu.txt (BIS 812 EMA)
https://www.ssab.com/Products/Brands/Strenx/Products/Strenx-700 (Strenx 700E)
Regards
Hi Anonymous,
The air quality and number of days it can manage is dependent on the air purification system for instance Sweden is switching from soda lime non-regenerative CO2 removal system to solid amines with steam regeneration. So I assume Japan do have different systems.
/Kjell
Hi Pete and Kjell
Presumably, monoethanolamine (MEA, HOCH2CH2NH2) as carbon dioxide (CO2) absorbant is used. CO2 is absorbed by MEA inside of absorber, is released by heating of CO2 absorbed MEA, and is excreted outside of submarine.
Regards
Thanks for all the comments guys.
I'll answer, by way of a new article, tomorrow (Tuesday).
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
Maybe this link can be of interest then, the Collins class is mention in the document.
/Kjell
I don’t know that you can equate 97m length with AIP, using Japanese sub as a comparison. The Japanese sub is considered squishy by its own crews, with the Australian version requiring at least a 6m plug for more fuel & living space. I would suggest the 97m length is in part to keep within the hydro calculations already done on the 99m hull of the nuke version. ie if you change the hull by lengthening or shortening too much from the original, you may cause unintended consequences. It is of course doable & is done, but the more you change the greater the possible effects on sensors & water flow dynamics that have to be taken into account all over again. Another part may well be living space. It is very hard to get submarine crews & the addition of mixed gender crews & past practices such as hot bunking all add up to you need to create more living space, especially on long range subs. We struggle to crew 6 currently. No point having 12 if you can’t crew 6.
Regards
Hi Anonymous [at 8/3/19 11:55 AM]
I have moved your comment to the string you intended.
Thanks for your obviously very experienced eye in commenting about:
- tight accommodation on Japanese Soryu subs, which would have required a 6m plug for a taller Australian - longer range SEA 1000 Soryu.
- mixed crews, hotbunking and decreased tolerance of potential Australian recruits to uncomfortable SSK conditions
- maintaining length to avoid unintended consequences re sensors & water flow dynamics
- yes, how Australia will crew 12 subs when it can hardly crew 6 is a problem being flicked to a future generation of politicians and Admirals.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
Japan(J) SAE-1000 (length 90m, without AIP) based on Soryu (length 84m, with AIP) shows feature of longer range (= more fuel) and better endurance [1] to satisfy requirements of RAN. Difference in length between Shortfin (length 97m) and J-SAE-1000 is 7m and provides larger target strength. Rational explanation is needed.
[1] Living space of J-SAE-1000 is a first class compared with Soryu according to JMSDF.
Regards
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