On March
22. 2024 Gessler provided some very interesting links, photos and comments along the lines:
"On Pete's note regarding the K-5 SLBM's possible 14m height, something comes to mind:
Its hump obviously speaks to the size of the SLBMs it's designed to carry. However, that S5 design (which I'm assuming is only one of many being tested) is now at least 6 years old, considering the first public sighting/leak was in 2018.
Photo B - More
recently I've come across what could be a newer iteration of the evolving S-5
design (see photo above - source https://ibb.co/Wnf9sQK ). This is
from an official publication earlier in 2024. Again, there is no context
or specific information provided about the program, so we know just as little
regarding the program's current status as before.
[Pete comment Wikipedia's drawing apparently from a visit to DRDO supports Photo B being the more likely shape of the S5 class.]
Of note
is obviously the fact, at Photo B, that the missile compartment is now far more streamlined
into the submarine's hull. Could this be an indication that DRDO's propulsion
advancements in ballistic missile development have resulted in a smaller and/or
lighter missile being sufficient to reach the same range with the same payload
as before? I can only guess.
There are
also other differences, such as the dive planes being moved onto the
sail/conning tower (which is more in line with how most submarines have them)
as opposed to the previous model which had them on the hull in front of the
sail (like on UK's Vanguard-class).
Pete Comment
Yes. Ever smaller missiles are achieving longer ranges. This is through use of lighter composite materials, for many parts and casings, rather than using heavier steel. Also solid fuel propellants are being developed that are more energy intensive per kg.
Furthermore lower throw-weights requiring less boost can be achieved through greater miniaturisation of warheads and MIRV "buses" with no reduction in explosive power. Changing from heavier "old school" boosted fission to 2 staged thermonuclear warheads is one way to achieve smaller, lighter warheads. Increasing accuracy (ie. smaller, lower CEP) can make smaller, lighter warheads (say of 100kT as effective (eg. on deep dug bunkers) as effective as older larger multi-megaton warheads).
Looking at Wikipedia's entry for the future S5-class SSBN it will be:
- 13,500 tonnes (presumably surfaced)
- it might carry K-5 SLBMs but with severe range limitations of only 6,000km (barely adequate to hit Beijing). This might mean an S5 might need to operate in waters near land. Chinese patrol aircraft based in Myanmar might strike it. Also fixed Chinese undersea sensors might detect it. Or its possible patrol area is within a predictable seaspace for Chinese SSNs or Pakistani SSKs (lurking near the Vizag current Indian SSBN base) to detect it.
- So its better to carry between 12 and 16 much longer range K6 SLBMs . Not yet developed K6s might be just over 12m tall. With a 3,000kg (presumably max) MIRVed payload its range might be the minimum 8,000km for patrolling in a "safe haven" south of Diego Garcia but still in range of Beijing.
= With a 1,000kg "light load" a K6 SLBM might have range of 12,000km allowing the S5 SSBN to be safer, far into the southern Indian Ocean, yet still in range of Beijing.
The Russians are looking at a new SSBN too. But with all their money going
ReplyDeletedown the Ukraine war toilet, I wonder how they'll afford it?
"General Director Vilnit, in conversation with Russian media, confirmed that
the work on the new generation of strategic submarines has begun. However,
details remain sparse; when queried about whether this development is related
to the Arcturus-class submarine, Vilnit replied ambiguously, "It will be
better," leaving the status and future of the Arcturus-class submarines
unclear. It is interesting to note, however, that the Rubin Central Design
Bureau for Maritime Engineering has a long history of submarine development,
including the Typhoon class — the largest submarine ever built — and the Borei
class, which alone replaced three previous classes of submarines active in the
Russian Navy."
See:
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2024/march/14172-russia-begins-development-of-fifth-generation-strategic-submarine-set-to-surpass-arcturus-class.html
Thanks Anonymous at 3/27/2024 2:40 AM
ReplyDeleteWith most of Russia's defence budget and attention focused on the Army and Airforce fighting in Ukraine I assume General Director Vilnit's announcement is a political move symbolising
major Russian naval aspirations still exist.
Cheers Pete
Russia has a mitigating factor working for it. it is mostly not short on material resources and can price a lot of stuff in rubles. The major drawback the Russians have in my opinion, is human capital. they lack enough troops now and will have a much more aged work force by 2030.
ReplyDeletePS: While invading Ukraine was and remains a bad idea, hypocritical credulity and western pontification are not going to help. At one stage, everyone has to sit down, hold their noses and work out a solution that 'kind of' satisfies the warring parties. As unpalatable as it may sound, the west has been cack handed on way too many occasions, allowing Russia leverage.
Hi GhalibKabir
ReplyDeleteRussian intelligence totally underestimated Ukraine's fighting spirit - already making Putin the loser is so many ways. The money and brain drain from Russia, the new sick man of Europe, has accelerated.
Putin's declining kingdom now has to appreciate 2 extra democracies, Finland and Sweden, reinforcing NATO.
The combined forces of the West, assisting Ukraine, are preventing Putin from his larger plan of invading more victim-lands. In his personal quest for greatness Putin is exploiting the sacrifices of the Russian people.
The main threat is Trump, who might sell out Ukraine, and all the West's good intentions, to Trump's ego-boss, Putin.
Regards Pete
More countries are getting into the sub-building game these days:
ReplyDeleteMacron and Lula launch submarine built in Brazil with French tech:
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/macron-lula-launch-submarine-built-brazil-with-french-tech-2024-03-27/
France to help Brazil develop nuclear-powered submarines:
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/27/france-to-help-brazil-develop-nuclear-powered-submarines_6659812_4.html
Thanks Anonymous at 3/28/2024 4:04 AM
ReplyDeleteInteresting, in particular, is "France to help Brazil develop nuclear-powered submarines" at https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/27/france-to-help-brazil-develop-nuclear-powered-submarines_6659812_4.html
I would say that, due to the US and UK decisions under AUKUS to delver SSNs to Australia COMPLETE WITH NUCLEAR REACTORS, France no longer feels constrained by the West's PREVIOUS taboo against submarine nuclear reactor proliferation.
In short Brazil's future SSN, which may be commissioned in the late 2030s, may use a French K15, or less likely K22, reactor.
Regards Pete
I don't think the tenacity of Ukraine to resist was underestimated by Russia. Basically what russia thought was 'one of the red lines' was crossed (in their view).
ReplyDeleteThe morality or logic of the issue is not the point... perceived interest is (despite evidence to the contrary being available -> Ukrainians are now implacably against Russia)
I am not saying Ukraine should simply fold, all I am saying is, like many times in the historical past, an unpalatable solution is very likely or in other words, geopolitics.
Even with western support, zelensky won't get all of what he wants and rolling back Russia to its pre-2014 position? I don't know what levers need to move to make that possible
Hi again Anonymous at 3/28/2024 4:04 AM
ReplyDeleteFurther to France's (perhaps outdated) concerns about proliferating submarine reactor (along with its integration) technology to Brazil - here is another article:
https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240328-macron-says-france-will-help-brazil-develop-nuclear-powered-submarines of March 28, 2024
"...Brasilia has been trying to convince Paris to increase technology transfers to help it integrate the reactor into the submarine and sell it equipment linked to nuclear propulsion.
France has been reticent to transfer such technology due to the challenges of nuclear proliferation.
"There are discussions on the possibility of France cooperating with us, including on nuclear energy, nuclear fuel," according to the European head of Brazilian diplomacy, Maria Luisa Escorel de Moraes, who recognizes that it is a "strategic, sensitive, delicate matter."...
Pete Comment
At a fairly secret level France recognises the US is very sensitive about outside powers (like France) transferring nuclear technology (even SSN reactors) to countries in "America's Western Hemisphere backyard". This is what blocked the UK and France selling SSN for the Canada class decades ago.
This US sensitivity is constraining France now.
Regards Pete
Hi GhalibKabir
ReplyDeleteOn your insistence India relies on Fission Boosted weapons check out India's well documented thermonuclear 1998 Thermonuclear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#India
"After the Pokhran-II tests, Rajagopala Chidambaram, former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission of India said that India has the capability to build thermonuclear bombs of any yield at will.[5]"
and
"India officially maintains that it can build thermonuclear weapons of various yields up to around 200 kt (840 TJ) on the basis of the Shakti-1 thermonuclear test.[40][45]"
and see https://web.archive.org/web/20171024045228/http://pib.nic.in:80/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=52814 "The two-stage thermonuclear device, with a fusion-boosted fission trigger as the first stage and with the features needed for integration with delivery vehicles, was tested at the controlled yield of 45 kt and had the purpose of developing nuclear weapons with yields up to around 200 kt." and "The two-stage device
The thermonuclear device tested on 11 May was a two-stage device of advanced design, which had a fusion-boosted fission trigger as the first stage and a fusion secondary stage which was compressed by radiation implosion and ignited. For reasons of proliferation sensitivity, we have not given the details of the materials used in the device or their quantities. Also, our nuclear weapon designers, like nuclear weapon designers all over the world, have not given the fusion component of the total yield for our thermonuclear test."
I rest my case :)
Cheers Pete
Indian SSBNs can also creep stealthily into vantage points in the Pacific to strike at China.
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous at 3/29/2024 6:47 PM
ReplyDeleteThat is true. Indian SSBNs could sail into the Pacific to strike at China.
But Indian SSBNs would be at considerable risk passing through the narrow straits of the Indonesian archipelago - where Chinese SSNs, SSKs, aircraft and frigates may lurk.
Regards Pete