Pete Comment: My good friend Shawn Chung has provided the wide ranging essay below, which highlights the possibilities of Naval Group, TKMS and South Korea providing an increasingly standardized "ASEAN submarine". Shawn also comments on possibilities India might become a major submarines for export builder in the Indo-Pacific region. New types of AIP and LIBs also present new capability and marketing possibilities.
India's future submarine sales might be in conjunction with India marketing its formidable BrahMos multiple launch mode, including SLCM, supersonic cruise missile. India is also joint developing a hypersonic BrahMos-II cruise missile. Of course Hypersonic Cruise Missiles represent a revolutionary technical and strategic change that all great powers are developing and many customer countries, like Australia, might buy.
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"The ASEAN submarine?"
By Shawn Chung
When I did my research about the submarine programs of seven Southeast Asian countries (https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/05/state-of-submarine-forces-in-asean-2023.html), two recent occurrences in the submarine market could impact the future acquisition decisions of ASEAN countries, and there is a small probability that a single class of submarines will be selected by navies across South East Asia.
Naval Group Scorpene
The Scorpene class is an export model designed by Naval Group in the 1990s, with the first boat (for the Chilean navy) laid down in 1999, and is in service with the Chilean, Malaysian, Indian (Kalvari-class) and Brazilian navies, with displacement ranging from 1,565 tons to 1,900 tons.
On the 18th of July 2023, India signed an MoU with France for three more Indian-build Scorpenes, with an Indian created AIP module (https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1703456&s=08 website "down" at present, this alternate works ), which will be retrofitted to the Kalvari class. (https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/07/india-to-procure-rafale-m-more-scorpene-submarines/)
India restarting Scorpene production could interest both Indonesia and the Philippines (who may select the class for their national submarine programs), especially if India/Naval Group were to sweeten their bids with a VLS module for the upcoming BrahMos-NG cruise missile, which is 2/3rd the size of the original 8.2m BrahMos A. The Philippines is about to commission its first BrahMos A shore-based battalion, while Indonesia is in discussion to buy the missile system. (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/india-russia-defence-firm-eyes-200-mln-missile-deal-with-indonesia-2023-03-15/)
Malaysia also has a further requirement for two new submarines by 2035, and it would be logical, from a training and supply perspective, for the Malaysian Navy to acquire more Scorpene-class submarines, while their two Scorpene submarines have already spent 14 years in service, and are due for MLU.
The Scorpene class was initially offered with a MEMSA AIP system that used oxygen and ethanol combustion to generate power. In 2019 Naval Group announced a second-generation the FC2G AIP https://www.naval-group.com/en/full-speed-tomorrow module, which extracts hydrogen from diesel to combine pure oxygen within a fuel cell to generate power, increasing submerged endurance by 18 days (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgIWbOtvr3o)
I personally find Naval Groups FC2G AIP to be overcomplicated, as it uses a three step refining process to extract hydrogen from diesel fuel, then injects the refined hydrogen into a fuel cell to generate power. Also, from Naval Group's mock-ups, liquid oxygen is stored in a large tank within the AIP hull module, which could be a safety hazard. In comparison, TKMS/Siemens' fuel cell system, which is used in the Dolphin, Dakar-class, Type-212, Type-214 and Type-218SG classes use oxygen and hydrogen stored in tanks outside the pressure hull. https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2015-03/1425435374_superdolphincomparisondiagram.jpg
India's DRDO-designed AIP module for its Scorpenes' "generates hydrogen onboard", so it's likely the same system as FC2G, and could be the result of a technology transfer from Naval Group. ( https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/lt-drdo-sign-contract-for-aip-system-for-submarines-of-indian-navy/articleshow/101187577.cms?from=mdr )
How the new Scorpene order affects India’s convoluted Project-75I program ( https://www.business-standard.com/india-news/project-75i-what-is-it-and-how-has-it-progressed-since-1997-123071200224_1.html ) is anyone’s guess at this point in time. After almost all bidders withdrew or were disqualified in mid-2022, India rescheduled the deadline for August 2023, with the Naval Group Barracuda, Navantia’s S-80 Plus, the TKMS Type-214 or Type-218 (https://frontierindia.com/p-75i-project-germany-and-india-are-close-to-a-deal-to-build-diesel-submarines-jointly/?expand_article=1) and the Hanwha Ocean’s DSME-3000 are still in the running.
Hanwha Ocean DSME-3000
(I can’t find any designation change since they became Hanwha Ocean (HO))
South Korea's Hanwha Ocean (formerly DSME) produces the 3,600 ton KSS-III Batch 2 submarine class for the South Korean Navy, and is offering two export variants - the DSME-2000 and the lithium-ion battery equipped DSME-3000, with the DSME-3000 in India’s Project-75I contest.
The KSS-III bears the distinction of being the first and currently only AIP submarine class with an SLBM capability - using the Hyunmoo 4-4, with a conventional warhead and a 500 km range.
At the recent MADEX 2023, Hanwha Ocean signed an agreement with Babcock Canada to develop the “perfect submarine” for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) (https://youtu.be/JGSHtCMJ-yc) while this project has only just started and an RFI has not been issued, we do know that Canada will require 12 long range conventional submarines, which need to be introduced in the early-2030s to replace the Victoria class. (https://maritime-executive.com/article/canadian-navy-makes-plans-to-replace-aging-victoria-class-subs)
Also at MADEX 2023, Janes Defense reported that Hanwha Ocean had sweetened their offer to the Phillipines Navy with an update to the 1,400ton DSME 1400-class with KSS III systems - including sensor, combat and propulsion systems (without AIP).
HO’s latest pitch to the PN could also impact Indonesia’s stalled Improved Nagapasa (DSME-1400) submarine program (https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/05/indonesia-state-of-submarine-forces-in.html). We know that Indonesia now intends to buy 2 AIP submarines, and Hanwha Ocean could offer a revision with the DSME-2000 or DSME-3000 design instead of the Improved Nagapasa.
Conclusion
Since India announced it was buying three Naval Group Scorpene-class with AIP, there has been zero articles speculating on the state of the Project-75I program, though I personally think it will be canceled and replaced by 6 AIP Scorpenes. Whether India’s machinations will impact the submarine procurement programs of the Philippines and Indonesia is likely, as both countries already buying Indian arms. A Scorpene built by PT Pal in Indonesia for both navies with Indian-sourced components (and modules) is likely. This could include MLU/Production for Malaysia, and possibly for other ASEAN navies, such as Vietnam, (India just gifted Vietnam a 30 year old frigate).
South Korea is now being called the arsenal of the free world (https://thediplomat.com/2023/07/is-south-korea-ready-to-be-a-global-pivotal-arms-exporter/), offering excellent products like the T/A-50 light jet, the K9 Thunder SPH and the K21 IFV (which just won an Australian Army order). In Southeast Asia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, and Vietnam already use arms supplied by South Korea.
With the Hanwha Group taking control of DSME earlier this year, we are now seeing a more aggressive marketing push by Hanwha Ocean into the global submarine market.
Love to see an updated AIP article
ReplyDeleteH.I. Sutton has a good video about the history of AIP systems and types
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/c2QS_aEsVuw
Hi suffolkowner at 8/04/2023 6:31 AM
ReplyDeleteCheck out https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/search?q=AIP+ for AIP articles in this blog.
Also, as Shawn Chung writes above, see H.I. Sutton's video about the history of AIP systems and types at https://youtu.be/c2QS_aEsVuw
Several countries occasionally make patriotic and/or marketing claims taht they have come up with viable AIP technologies - but "Not yet tested on operational submarines".
Successful AIP tech (ie. proven operationally in several navies) is limited to TKMS/Siemens' Fuel Cell and Saab's Stirling Engine technology.
Regards Pete
Hi Shawn at 8/04/2023 1:16 PM
ReplyDeleteThanks for https://youtu.be/c2QS_aEsVuw
Cheers Pete
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteA "french" perspective on the Scorpene successes (17 exported , none in the home Market all SSN, probably more to be confirmed ..)Still without AIP?How come?
A look at the overall picture and a few points(hope not to be too "cocky")
AIP is very important in some tactical/geographical situations but clearly not the "panacea" although with high political communication impact,(However,Japan? Australia in 2016?, Brazil?).Naval effort is clearly on Li batteries (Saft , LFP) for at leat since 2008 and it will likely be implemented on the next likely Scorpene export(Romania, Indonesia, PH, Marocco or India) because this is the obvious road map to the Scorpene story.This implies a complete change of the electrical and diesel subsystem , not a minor change.Israeli for Korean needs :submerged IRBM, ICBM platforms, unlikely to sail far away (Cryogenic gas at sea?) are not comparable
-the Scorpene is an "oceanic" type,fast and deep, equipped with up to date, if not the best, sub systems (Thales sensors, Safran optronic masts, permanent magnet motor and drives from Jeumont,inertial navigation system (laser gyro or fiber), combat systems.. that are also on the SAAB (by en large) the Korean DSME or even the TKMS (navigation in N. 212CD) proposals, if one look at the details
Thales not only supply the UK Royal Navy (Thales UK and Fr are partner for 40+ years..and the technological bricks , components , software module, tests , experience at sea.. ect are unlikely to be different ) but also the USN with its last digital wet sonars
-the weapon range of the Scorpene is state of the art,F21 torpedoes,SM39 missiles, MdCN cruise missile..ITAR free on par with the best world system
- Naval technology transfer in India or Brazil alleviates the limited capacity and the high labor cost in Fr.To achieve for instance 100% ,make in India,it is sufficient at the beginning to have modules made in India( or Brazil), incorporated in a third party sale..
Contrary to TKMS ,or SAAB ,Naval yards are booked for the next 10/15 years with its top Fr N priority.Naval needs its foreign partner in fact.
Thanks Anonymous from France at 8/04/2023 11:12 PM
ReplyDeleteI'll turn your very interesting comments into an article later this week.
Cheers Pete
I doubt india can or for that Brazil can act as submarine sub assemblies manufacturers. Their own domestic needs are substantial. A single cookie cutter model ITAR issue free SSK is a theoretically neat solution. However, it is not practical at least in the short medium term. The industrial manufacturing capability is not there neither is the naval rationale at a regional level.
ReplyDeleteThe cookie cutter model however will likely make potent SSKs available to Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia etc ‘at scale’.
Hi GhalibKabir at 8/09/2023 7:01 PM
ReplyDeleteI agree. Also France's Naval Group is unlikely to permit its Scorpene customers (Brazil and India) to on-supply French designed Scorpenes to more potential customers. Such third party selling would effectively be in competition with Naval Group.
Also Brazilian and Indian industry is not particularly compeditive.
Naval Group itself being in early stages of selling Scorpenes to the Philippines and Indonesia is what is being reported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3%A8ne-class_submarine#Potential_operators
Meanwhile Vietnam's Russian built Kilos are only 10 years young (or less). So, I think, another Vietnamese purchase of SSKs is a long way off.
Cheers Pete
Yes there is also the problem of NG having issues on intellectual property and business cannibalisation grounds. The primary issue remains that given the 15-20 submarine short fall for a truly three fleet blue water navy as far as the IN goes, the Asian cookie cutter SSK idea is what we call in Hindi as ‘khayali pulao’ 😂
ReplyDeleteA boat designed to meet the requirements of the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project may not be a good fit for south east Asia, given Canada's interest in under ice operations, something unlikely to be required in the South China Sea.
ReplyDeleteToo true GhalibKabir at 8/10/2023 2:08 PM
ReplyDeleteRegarding "three fleet blue water navy" do you mean India's Western, Eastern and Southern Naval Commands? or Western, Eastern and "Andaman and Nicobar" commands?
My industrious bevy of beautiful translators have determined ‘khayali pulao’ means "Air Castle" more precisely a mirage or rainbow that one can never reach.
Cheers Pete
Hi Bill Seney 8/10/2023 on Canadian subs
ReplyDeleteIndeed Canada has distinctly different submarine requirements than Southeast Asian countries.
Canada needs much higher capacity AIP and/or Lithium-ion batteries for extended "under ice operations".
I would go further and say that Canada's main under ice opponents are fast moving, potentially 3 months under ice, Russian SSNs. Also Russian SSBNs are under ice dwellers. Furthermore, increasing Chinese Navy (PLAN) SSNs might go under ice as China's interests expand.
So future Canadian SSKs will be inferior to their competition. Best to beat the US's ban on US/UK SSNs for Canada's Navy by buying French Barracuda SSNs.
Or Canada should simply buy XLUUVs as Victoria-class replacements, because an XLUUV is not risking a crew under ice.
Cheers Pete