PETE COMMENT
Looking at Wispywood2344's article below, my own research and here. Japan has begun a research program of SSK submarine firing land attack missiles (categorised as "cruise" "ballistic" "hypersonic" "standoff" or a combination in one or two missiles). Japan's research extends to launch by torpedo tube (in the Israeli Dolphin SSK or UK Astute SSN fashion) or possibly vertically launched systems (VLS).
If 533mm torpedo tube fired Japan's existing Soryu and Taigei class SSKs, which already fire torpedoes, ASMs and mines, could be retrofitted (say within the next 5 years = 2028) to fire land attack missiles.
If the Japanese Government decides on VLS this may be:
A. by new post Taigei-class SSKs, less likely to carry nuclear warheads. Japan's practice of usually building 10 SSKs per class, tends to indicate a new class, which may have VLS, would be laid down in 2029 with commissioning in 2034.
or
B. for a dedicated hypersonic/ballistic missile carrying SSK known as a conventional submarine with ballistic missiles (SSB) more likely carrying a nuclear warhead option from the late 2030s. My reasoning being "Why would South Korea (SK) and Japan go to the expense of building a class of SSBs if their principal weapon, hypersonic/ballistic missiles, are merely conventionally armed" and "For a nuclear armed target country (eg. NK) SK and Japanese missiles would be considered "nuclear/conventional warhead ambiguous" and in any case would prompt "NK to use its nuclear weapons or risk losing them - leading to an NK nuclear response".
Either A. or B. could be useful for pre-emptive or second strikes against military or command targets in China, Russia (and islands owned by either) or more likely against North Korea (NK).
Japan's VLS study has an element of design-capability competition with South Korea's KSS-III SSBs, including the tendency of SSBs to be nuclear armed. Noting it is highly unlikely that South Korea would ever by Japan's target.
As conjectured above a Japanese SSB would tend towards eventually carrying nuclear warheads. Or Japanese SSBs would be further encouragement for the US to maintain its existing (though increasingly unlikely) nuclear umbrella protecting Japan.
See varying US attitudes, over time, to the possibility of South Korean and also Japanese nuclear weapon programs right up to 2016 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/henry-kissinger-nuclear-vault/2017-03-22/stopping-korea-going-nuclear-part-i
ARTICLE
Wispywood2344, on Jan 8
2023 commented:
The Japanese government has decided to make a major military build-up and has declared that the defense budget for FY2023 will be 27% higher than in FY2022. [1]
It also announced a policy of
developing weapons such as [medium-long ranged] standoff missiles.
Here, I would like to introduce matters related to submarines.
(A) Development of [Japanese] VLS-equipped submarines [4]
(B) Submarine-launched
missiles
Two types of cruise missiles
will be developed.
One will be launched from a
torpedo tube and probably fly at subsonic speeds. [5][9]
The other will probably be
launched from a VLS and fly at hypersonic speeds. [2]
The latter has a land-launched
version, reportedly has a range of 2000-3000 km. [8][10]
The quieter version of the
Type 18 torpedo. [3]
The development project to apply a new turbine engine has been underway since FY2018 and will be completed as planned. [8]
(D) Research on UUV control
technology
Establish target detection,
class identification, motion analysis technology using passive sonar onboard
UUVs, automatic obstacle avoidance technology, and position control technology
using inter-UUV underwater communication. [7]
For new information on standoff missiles such as HGM, please refer to the list I prepared if you are interested. [11]
[1] FY Reiwa05(2023) Defense Programs and Budget of Japan
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/yosan_gaiyo/2023/yosan_20221223.pdf#page=5
[2] ibid.
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/yosan_gaiyo/2023/yosan_20221223.pdf#page=12
*Look at a submarine firing
"極超音速誘導弾"
(Hypersonic Cruise Missile).
[3] ibid.
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/yosan_gaiyo/2023/yosan_20221223.pdf#page=31
[4] Defense
Force Development Plan : Composition of the JSDF
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/agenda/guideline/plan/plan_03.html
[5] FY
Reiwa04(2022) preliminary project evaluation : Submarine launched missile
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/2022/pdf/jizen_11_honbun.pdf
[6] FY
Reiwa04(2022) preliminary project evaluation : Research on hypersonic cruise
missile
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/2022/pdf/jizen_02_honbun.pdf
[7] FY
Reiwa04(2022) preliminary project evaluation : Research on UUV control
technology
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/2022/pdf/jizen_03_honbun.pdf
[8] FY
Heisei28 (2017) preliminary project evaluation : New torpedo equipped with
silent engine
[9] Summary
of Proceedings of the 43rd Expert Committee on Policy Evaluation of the MoD
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/agenda/meeting/seisaku/pdf/gijigaiyou43.pdf#page=4
*An outside expert asked about
the missile's launcher, and the official replied "Conventional torpedo
tube is considered".
[10] Asahi
Shimbun (newspaper) [article translates as it is in html] : Long-range missiles
will be deployed in phases "in 5 years" and "in 10 years".
https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASQDW5QBXQDVUTFK00B.html
[11] http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/Japanese_Stand_Off_Missile_Development.html
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-navy-may-repeat-kalveri-class-submarine-order-101673416531671.html
ReplyDeletehttps://idrw.org/india-might-revive-super-kalvari-submarine-program/#more-303687
Looks like India may have finally decided to dump the ill-fated P75i in favour of more Scorpènes or Scorpène derived class submarines. This makes more sense and should deliver submarines much more quickly. Especially if the they can develop and intergrate fuel cell AIP, Li-ion batteries and VLS onto the Scorpène hull which would make a decently capable SSK.
Thanks Rai
ReplyDeleteSee my reply to Gessler on this same matter https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/01/helicopters-collide-australian-gold.html?showComment=1673503761255#c4577882888954059980
Retrofitted AIP may be doable but "Li-ion batteries and VLS" would shift India's existing Kalvari-Scorpene production line to a whole new "Super Scorpene" Project.
This would likely delay "Li-ion batteries and VLS" Super Scorpenes, which would need major redesigning, until 2035 for first commissioning.
Also India's future 6 x Project-75 Alpha SSNs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_75_Alpha
will be superior to any upgrades to Scorpene SSKs.
Regards Pete
More interesting news from that part of the world:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/south-korea-now-openly-discussing-arming-itself-with-nuclear-weapons
Is there any consensus on the benefits of Li-ion like Japan seems to be moving towards vs Li-ion and AIP like the South Koreans have? Which is better for a modern SSK? Do the Japanese believe that AIP isn't very useful because of low speed and that submarines should just max out on Li batteries?
ReplyDeleteI would be wary of a super-Scorpene program given the difficulties encountered with the Spanish S-80 design. However some older articles seem to indicate that the Kalvari-class may have been designed with the DRDO AIP in mind so integrating it onto the submarine might not require a major redesign.
ReplyDeleteThanks Gessler @ Jan 14, 2023, 2:15:00 AM
ReplyDeleteFor “South Korea Now Openly Discussing Arming Itself With Nuclear Weapons”
of Jan 12, 2023 at https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/south-korea-now-openly-discussing-arming-itself-with-nuclear-weapons
Similar worries, that the US is no longer willing or reliable, in providing a nuclear umbrella, hence aliies building their own nuclear weapons capability, i also being considered in:
- JAPAN see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/01/japanese-vls-submarines-nuclear-warhead.html
and
- AUSTRALIA see https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/01/australian-nuclear-deterrent-french.html and https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2023/01/us-nuclear-weapon-sharing-under-aukus.html
China is on the way to building a Nuclear Superpower arsenal (perhaps one day as large as Russia’s). NK, from a small number of nukes, is also rapidly expanding – China might also defend NK with nuclear weapons.
The risk of a return of Trump after 2024 or a new a possibly isolationist President Ron DeSantis means SK, Japan and Australia are losing confidence in the US’s real, or always mythical, nuclear umbrella.
Regards Pete
Hi Anonymous @Jan 14, 2023, 5:03:00 AM
ReplyDelete"Is there any consensus on the benefits of Li-ion like Japan seems to be moving towards vs Li-ion and AIP like the South Koreans have?" NO.
"Which is better for a modern SSK?" DEPENDS ON A COUNTRY'S REQUIREMENTS AND THREATS
"Do the Japanese believe that AIP isn't very useful because of low speed and that submarines should just max out on Li batteries?" JAPAN DOESN'T SEE AIP AS APPROPRIATE TO JAPANESE SUBMARINES NORMAL PATROL PATTERNS - BUT IF JAPAN BUILDS NOT A KSS-III BUT A JSS-III THEN A LI-ION AND AIP COMBINATION MIGHT BE CONSIDERED.
Regards Pete
Hi Anonymous @Jan 14, 2023, 7:02:00 AM
ReplyDeleteYes India has long been contemplating retrofitting DRDO AIP into the Kalvari class.
Problem is, producing an efficient AIP is very expensive and difficult. Even India's almost-ally Russia has been unable to build an efficient AIP solution after 30 years of trying.
Regards Pete
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteShape of Taigei is similar to Soryu, but their structures are quite different. Taigei has three bulkheads, while Soryu has five bulkheads [1].
[1] SHIPS OF THE WORLD, Feb/2023, No989, Feature articles = Every things of Taigei, Page 76-85, “Reporting on the brand-new submarine Taigei” by Masao Kobayashi, ex-commander of JMSDF submarine fleet and admiral
Regards
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteAmong the 17 R&D projects included in the FY2024 defense budgetary request, I would like to introduce matters related to "Submarine Matters".[1]
A) USV for combat support [2].
The outline is as follows:
1.Selective equipments ; sensor (possibly sonar and ESM antenna), anti-ship-missiles, anti-submarine-torpedoes, etc. .
2.Submersible for stealth.
3.Remotely controlled via SATCOM.
4.Automatic navigation in bad seastate.
5.Able to act as a fleet" in cooperation with multiple USVs.
6.This project will cost 24.5B yen in total and complete by FY2030.
B) Improvement of Type12 Lightweight Torpedo (LWT) [3].
The outline is as follows;
1. Add anti-torpedo (hard-kill) capability to Type12 LWT.
2.Improve the surface ship sonar, to enable effective operation of improved Type12 LWT.
3.This project will cost 12.5B yen in total and complete by FY2029.
C) Japan-U.S. joint development of "Glide-Phase-Interceptor" (GPI)[4].
The Japanese MoD starts development of land-based HGV interceptor system this year. [5][6][7]
From next year onward, it will participate in the U.S. ongoing develompent project of sea-based GPI system.
In my opinion, Japan will be responsible for the upper stage rocket motor, similar to the Japan-US jointly developed SM-3Block2A.
[1]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/policy/hyouka/seisaku/2023/jizen.html
[2]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/policy/hyouka/seisaku/2023/pdf/jizen_01_honbun.pdf
[3]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/policy/hyouka/seisaku/2023/pdf/jizen_16_honbun.pdf
[4]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/policy/hyouka/seisaku/2023/pdf/jizen_17_honbun.pdf
[5]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/2022/pdf/jizen_12_logic.pdf
[6]https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/hyouka/seisaku/2022/pdf/jizen_01_logic.pdf
[7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzUFHvvUNGU#t=3h09m31s
Best regards
wispywood2344
Hi wispywood2344 at 9/09/2023 7:20 AM
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing "A) USV for combat support" (which is submersible) and "C) Japan-U.S. joint development of "Glide-Phase-Interceptor" (GPI)" to my attention.
What I aim to do is soon combine the A) and C) details you have provided with information and images from Kosuke Takahashi's, 31 Aug 2023 Naval News article "Japan Requests Largest Defense Budget Ever" at https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/08/japan-requests-largest-defense-budget-ever/
and with https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3498431/us-department-of-defense-and-japan-ministry-of-defense-press-release-on-the-com/ "Commencement of Glide Phase Interceptor Cooperative Development"
and with https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/08/japan-joins-u-s-for-glide-phase-interceptor-gpi-development/
C) seems very much a reponse to the threats emerging from Chinese and Russian Hypersonic Glide Phase warheads - in part spurred by Russian Hypersonic threats to Ukraine.
I also will use your:
"B) Improvement of Type 12 Lightweight Torpedo (LWT) [3].
The outline is as follows;
1. Add anti-torpedo (hard-kill) capability to Type 12 LWT.
2.Improve the surface ship sonar, to enable effective operation of improved Type 12 LWT.
3.This project will cost 12.5B yen in total and complete by FY2029."
Noting https://weaponsystems.net/system/413-Type+12
Regards Pete