February 8, 2021

Saab's A26s likely use composites in stealthy sails/fins.

On February 5, 2021 /Kjell provided an interesting comment on steel in upper structures of A26 submarines leading to a high center of gravity, with consequent stability problems. 

The implication being Saab-Kockums is aiming to extensively use composites (for fins and elsewhere) in Sweden's Blekinge-class A26s and hopefully (for Sweden) in export A26s for the Netherlands.

/Kjell commented:

“It may happen that the Blekinge class (A26) will get rid of some steel and replace it with composite structure instead." [See Swedish language thesis (below) which has an abstract in English]:

“ABSTRACT

This report [of June 14, 2013] is a master thesis performed at The Royal [Swedish] Institute of Technology divisions of Lightweight Structures and Naval Architecture in collaboration with the Swedish defence material administration, FMV. There are several naval submarines used by the Swedish navy and more to be built.

The existing submarines have stability problems due to a high centre of gravity. Most parts on the existing vessels are made of steel, despite a position far above the vertical centre of gravity. By replacing the current steel casing covering the top part of the submarines pressure hull and the rudders placed on the tower, to a lighter composite structure it is possible to lower the centre of gravity.

In this report the composite structure of the rudder and the casing has been weight optimized to achieve a structure as light as possible, but still able to withstand the forces applied to the structure. An analysis of the applied loads shows that the dimensioning loads vary between 50 and 90 kPa depending on the specified part.

The results show that it is possible to decrease the weight of the rudder and casing [by] over 80 %. This would also give the submarine an increase in initial stability [by] over 40 % compared to the existing steel construction." 
_______________________________________

This use of composites was earlier supported by this Swedish article of 2012:

"parts of the [A26] tower [aka fin or sail] and the molded [ie. outer] hull will be built with the same unique material that makes up the hull of the Visby corvettes, ie composite of carbon fiber and vinyl ester (thermosetting plastic)The purpose is to give the submarine better stealth properties."

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Pete Comment

As can be seen above the 3 versions of Saab Kockums A26s ("Oceanic "extended range" intended for the Netherlands?) have extensive fins/sails. Therefore the use of composites, rather than heavy steel, would be even more appropriate. 

The sails have that unusual large, but blended, shape perhaps for hydrodynamic efficiency, acoustic stealthiness (reducing cavitation and other water flow noise), low magnetic signature and perhaps to house/mount a towed array sonar. (Artwork previously in this 2017 article).

Probably, internationally, most of the latest submarines designs would use composites, where possible, in those parts of submarines that are non-high load bearing. It is likely that steel (or part use of Titanium in some Russian and Chinese subs?) would particularly remain for pressure hulls.

7 comments:

  1. TKMS uses technology of composite materials of SIEMENS.
    https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/global/en/our-story/customers/howaldtswerke-deutsche-werft/79220/

    SAAB may have its own composite material section.
    https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2017/saab-acquires-gkn-aerospaces-applied-composites-ab-business

    Application of composite material such as glass/carbon fiber reinforced plastic (GFRP/CFRP) and fiber reinforce metal (FRM) for pressure hull seems to be difficult, due to difficulty of testing (GFRP/CFRP) and/or manufacturing (FRM).

    ReplyDelete
  2. A lot of people, even some Dutch politicians, think that the A26 Oceanic Extended Range is a contender for the Walrus replacement.

    Incorrect, Saab-Kockums and Damen Schelde are offering a boat, that's 73 meter long and has a diameter of (approx) 8 meter. Deplacement is approx 2.900 - 3.000 tonnes. The Saab-Kockums marketing wants us to believe that a stretched A26 version will do.
    The (standard) A26 version for the Swedish navy is 62 m. long with a diameter of just 6,4 meter. Gives a Length/Diameter (L/D) ratio of 9,69, while a L/D ratio of 7,0 is the ideal. A submarine with good hydrodynamic qualities needs to be short and 'fat'.
    That is good for an expeditionary submarine, which needs a long range of > 8.000 sea miles and a high cruising speed for the shortest possible transit time.
    If we stretch the A26 to for example to 70 meter, we will end up with an unfavourable L/D ratio of 10,94. For comparison: the Saab-Kockums-Damen 73 meter proposal has a L/D ratio of 9,13. This is a new design, with some recycled and/or evolved elements of the Walrus, Collins class and A26.

    tkMS and Navantia have offered 1 design each, the Type 212CD E and S-80Plus.
    The Naval Group and Saab-Kockums have offered 2 designs each. The Naval Group offered versions of the Barracuda and Scorpene. Saab-Kockums offered the 73 x 8 meter boat and (probably) the standard A26.

    Locum,

    ReplyDelete
  3. The S-80Plus proposal was rejected in December 2019. This type scored high because of it's price tag. The average total project costs per S-80 Plus stands now at EUR 1 billion for the Spanish navy. The S-80 Plus scored low in the assessment at functionality. Cramped Combat Information Center right in the middle of the boat. That means other crew members have to walk through this small room with a large electromins cabinet right in the middle of the CIC. That's not good for the concentration of the CIC crew. There is no spare room in the CIC for extra consoles / workstation. For example the Technical Center (TC) head sits at an uncomfortable folding seat.

    In the original S-80 ther was no spare room for drones or extra SOF / commando's, over the standard 8 SOF operators. In the 9,76 meter stretched S-80 Plus there is probably no weight margin left for extra personnel or drones.
    Maximum torpedo amd / or surface-to-suface missile load out is just 18 weapons. In an expeditionary boat with long lange and / or endurance you need preferably a max. load of 24 of such weapons.
    The engine room is equipped with a 'floating deck' and double suspension against, vibrations, shock and gives noise insulation. However, the engine room is too cramped for en-capsulation of the 3 MTU 16V 396 SE84's. That's not good for the noise stealth. Length/Diameter ratio of the S-80 Plus is a very high 11,07 (80,81 / 7,30 m.).

    Locum,

    ReplyDelete
  4. Composite sail is not going to perform well in a collision with a cargo ship, as in the most recent incident between a Soryu class SSK and a 51000 ton cargo ship. Seamen on submarines, destroyers, frigates, need to learn to avoid huge ships. I wonder if we cannot hear a freighter ship, how can we hear a silent SSK or SSN? No more periscope check anymore?
    KQN

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thanks Anonymous at February 8, 2021 6:14PM on SIEMENS-TKMS and SAAB's use of composites.

    I have used your information at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/02/composites-essential-for-tkms-saab.html ,

    Regards

    Pete

    ReplyDelete
  6. Thanks Locum

    I'll use your February 9, 2021 at 8:16 AM comment/info on Saab-Kockums-Damen Schelde's offering for the Netherlands' Walrus Replacement in a future article.

    Regards

    Pete

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hi KQN

    Thanks for your February 9, 2021 comment.

    Indeed a composite sail [or a sail made from light outer hull steel] is not going to perform well in a collision with a cargo ship.

    Also antennas/snorkel/optronic mastes and sail planes made from any composite or steel materials will break or bend out of shape on contact with a ship's hull.

    I recommend you read my article https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/02/soryu-subs-ship-collision-feb-8-9-2021.html on JDS Soryu not properly hearing or seeing the oncoming ship.

    True "if we cannot hear a freighter ship, how can we hear a silent SSK or SSN?".

    Collisions between UK/US and Russian SSNs happened quite often in the Cold War (up to 1992).

    A collision in 2009 between UK and French SSBNs either happened because both were too quiet and/or sonarmen were not listening well enough - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_and_Le_Triomphant_submarine_collision

    Regards

    Pete

    ReplyDelete

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