The Soryu class (at top) and Oyashio class (middle). Their main weapons are the Harpoon anti-ship missile and the Type 89 (Mk 48 very similar) torpedo.
---
It is useful that Japan is publically providing Soryu Budget Estimates (below) as they have deep significance for future costings for Australia’s “Super Soryu” class (possible) future submarine. Becoming familiar with Japanese financial-military-industrial thinking is important.
Note that for most submarines exported worldwide the export price is often twice the price "charged" to the builder's own navy. Hence a US$500 million for German Navy TKMS-HDW 212 when downgraded to 214 may cost US$1 billion to a customer. As Australia may be Japan's first submarine customer necessary Japanese organisational changes and translation of millions of pages of design and "owners" manuals may represent substantial extra costs to Japan and maybe to Australia.
TKMS and DCNS cannot produce such future sub for Australia costings because their SSK submarine solutions are more theoretical than actual (noting Shortfin SSK would, in 2025, be very different from France's not yet launched Barracuda SSN).
Submarine Matters main Japanese source "S" has provided detailed comparitive figures for major parts of the
Soryu program in Comments of early January 2016. Some further English translation has been done
by Pete.
Japan calculates the price of its Soryu using cost
accounting equation (1) GCIP (where GC = selling, general and administrative
expenses, I = interest rate, P = profit ratio). As the Japanese Government has requested
MHI and KHI to make nil profit in equations (1) MHI and KHI may go into the “red”
depending on the circumstances.
Calculate price = overall cost + interest + profit
+ packaging & transport cost --- (1)
Overall cost = manufacturing cost + manufacturing
cost * GC --- (2)
Manufacturing cost = direct material cost +
processing cost + direct cost --- (3)
Interest = overall cost * I --- (4)
Profit = overall cost * P --- (5)
First year costs (design cost, jig & tool cost,
testing cost, technical collaboration fee) belong to direct cost in equation
(2)
OYASHIO - SORYU TABLE (as at January 18, 2016)
SS
No.
|
Building
No.
|
Pennant
No.
|
MoF approved amount ¥ Billions & FY
|
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
-ched
|
Commi-ssioned
|
Built
By
|
5SS
|
8105
|
SS-590/ TS3608
|
¥52.2B
FY1993
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
|
6SS-15SS
Oyashios
10 subs
|
8106
-8115
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
|
LABs only
|
Feb 1994
|
Mar 2008
|
MHI
&
KHI
| |
16SS Soryu
Mark 1
|
8116
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
2009
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
2010
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
2011
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
2012
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
2013
|
MHI
|
No
21SS
|
No 21SS built
| |||||||
22SS
|
8121
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
2015
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2013
|
Nov 2015
|
Mar 2017
|
KHI
|
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
Oct 2013
|
Nov 2016
|
Mar 2018
|
MHI
|
26SS
|
8125
|
SS-510
|
¥51.7B FY2014
|
LABs + AIP
|
?
|
?
|
Mar 2019
|
KHI
|
27SS
Soryu
Mark 2
|
8126
|
SS-511
|
¥64.3B FY2015
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
Mar 2020
|
MHI
|
28SS
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
Mar 2021
|
KHI
|
29SS
|
?
|
?
|
1st of New Class
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
?
|
?
|
Aus1
|
?
|
?
|
Super SoryuAU
|
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
?
|
?
|
Aus2 to 12?
|
?
|
?
|
Super SoryuAU
|
LIBs only
|
?
| ? | ? |
?
|
Table courtesy of updates provided to Submarine Matters by Japanese sources. LABs = lead-acid batteries,
AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = lithium-ion batteries. See fuller explanation of this revised January 15, 2016 Table at Submarine Matters' January 15, 2016 article Oyashio - Soryu Table, Future Sub Program, ¥ in, Dragons out.
---
In the case of 19SS, build expenses (53 billion
yen) consist of government supply (23 billion yen) and build cost [labour?] (30
billion yen). About fifty percent of build cost is parts or material
cost. [One billion yen currently = 12 million Australian dollars]
"Execution" (build) expenses tend to decrease every year,
which are 60, 58.7, 56.2 and 53 billion yen for 16SS, 17SS, 18SS and 19SS,
respectively.
The currently operational Oyashio class are the
forerunners of the operational Soryu class. The Oyashios have a very
similar internal and external structure to the Soryus. The Oyashio class does
not have AIP so it has a shorter hull (at 81.7 meters) than the AIP equipped Soryu Mark Is (84 meters). The
Oyashios also lack full rubber (Anechoic tile like) coatings on the outer hull. These differences explain some of the differences in cost between Oyashios and Soryus.
The cost of the Oyashios was 52.2 billion yen (type 5SS,
FY1993 Oyashio). The cost rose to 59.8 billion yen for the AIP equipped Soryu Mark 1’s (designated type 16SS, FY2004 Soryu). A reference is “On the current
status of foundation of ship building and technology” by Japanese MoD, FY2011
March.
From this comparative data, it can be concluded that
the cost of AIP is high. [Pete’s Comment: The operational and safety downsides
of AIP for Soryu also worried/worries the Japanese Navy]
In fact, the
total cost of the 4 AIP engines for Soryu 19SS (FY2009 Soryu)
was 4 billion yen [about A$50 million upfront + high running costs].
The last of the Soryu Mark 1s (ie. with AIP) will
be 26SS (which will cost 52 billion yen).
Turning to future non-AIP Soryus [Mark 2s], specifically 27SS and 28SS, each will cost 64 billion yen. Within that
cost there is:
- an increase of 1.5 billion yen for the introduction
of Lithium-ion Batteries (LIBs)
- possible extra cost for the (possible) introduction of the new snorkel system
- removal of the AIP engines will save 4 billion yen
per submarine.
"If Australia selects the Japanese submarine, the
submarine will be very reliable, because there are three prototypes, i.e.,
27SS, 28SS and 29SS."
DETAILED COSTINGS FOR 28SS (the 2nd SORYU MARK 2)
In December 2015, the budget for 28SS was announced by the Japanese Ministry
of Defense (MoD). MoD requested 71.5
billion yen. Judging from the budget, MoD expected higher performance from the 28SS compared to the preceding 27SS, but Ministry of Finance (MoF) was not impressed with MoD's expectation. As is correct the MoF approved budget stands and is less, at 63.6 billion yen (excluding some initial
year costs).
28SS’s MoD Requested budget [1] was 71,527,717,000 (FY2016-2020) yen
The detailed request is as follows:
1) 118,833 (FY2016),
2) 71,408,884 (FY2017-2020),
3) 6,830,844 (FY2017),
4) 24,290,039 (FY2018),
5) 23,682,417 (FY2019),
6) 16,605,584 (FY2020).
28SS’s MoF Approved budget is 63.6 billion yen [2], cost of first
year (FY2016) is excluded.
[So "FY" is First year not what Pete assumed to be Financial Year? Or can FY be First Year or Financial Year?]
See mid January 2016 comments explanation - First Year (FY) are more generally expenses related to the initial investment in order to fulfill the production contracts of Japanese defence equipment. From the viewpoint of proper budget management and reduce corporate risk, First year costs are blanket contract and classified into direct costs. Example: 118,833 (FY2016) in 28SS’s MoD Requested budget.
[So "FY" is First year not what Pete assumed to be Financial Year? Or can FY be First Year or Financial Year?]
See mid January 2016 comments explanation - First Year (FY) are more generally expenses related to the initial investment in order to fulfill the production contracts of Japanese defence equipment. From the viewpoint of proper budget management and reduce corporate risk, First year costs are blanket contract and classified into direct costs. Example: 118,833 (FY2016) in 28SS’s MoD Requested budget.
For references see:
[1] http://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/gaisan/h28/gaisanyoukyu.pdf , “Detailed FY2016 Budget Request”, Page 672, Request No (Left column) 47.
[1] http://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/gaisan/h28/gaisanyoukyu.pdf , “Detailed FY2016 Budget Request”, Page 672, Request No (Left column) 47.
[2] http://www.mod.go.jp/e/d_budget/pdf/271016.pdf , “Defense Programs and Budget of Japan - Overview of FY2016 Budget Request”, Page 8/56.
Also note:
http://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/gaisan/h27/gaisanyoukyu.pdf , “Detailed FY2015 Budget Request”, Page 626, Request No (Left column)
40, and
http://www.mod.go.jp/e/d_budget/pdf/270414.pdf , “Defense Programs and Budget of Japan - Overview of FY2016 Budget
Request”, Page 8/66.
Details from S on batteries, torpedos and snorkels to follow later this week.
Pete
Sentence: “First year costs” *snips”
ReplyDeleteComment
First year costs are expenses related to the initial investment in order to fulfill the production contracts of defense equipment. From the viewpoint of proper budget management and reduce corporate risk, First year costs are blanket contract and classified into direct costs. Example: 118,833(FY2016) in 28SS’s MoD Requested budget
Sentence: “In the case of 19SS, build expenses (53 billion yen) consist of government supply (23 billion yen) and build cost [labour?] (30 billion yen).
Comment
Aim of the government supply is prevention from the double GCIP. Build cost is manufacturing cost in equation (3). Labor cost belongs to direct cost in equation (3).
Sentence: “-possible extra cost for the (possible) introduction of the new snorkel system”
Comment
Possible modifications are (1) snorkel system including new diesel generator, (2) additional LIBs, (3) floating deck and (4) new sonar system. Estimated costs are 2 and 3billion yen for (1) [only diesel generators] and (2) [additional 20 LIB arrays], respectively. Considering increased cost (+11.5 billion yen) of 27SS/28SS and cost effects of AIP elimination (+ 4 billion yen) and substitution of LABs by LIBs (-1.5 billion yen), i.e., 14 billion yen in total, various important modifications can be conducted. Modification (1) will be firstly conducted to exert performance of LIBs.
Regards
Dear Pete,
ReplyDeleteSome thoughts about battery prices.
A rough estimation is 1/8 up to 1/4 of SSK displacement is batteries weight. That would be 500 t for a 4.000 t submarine.
A standard car battery with 200 Ah weights about 65 kg and costs about 300€. Value just for lead acid battery about 2.5 million €.
A LIB with the same AmperHours costs about 10 times more.
So the price for LIBs would be around 25 million on the low end. With more capacity for a submarine without an AIP the factor is at least 2.
50 million € + just for the naked LIBs and every time again for a battery replacement.
A fuel cell AIP offers far more submerged operation time than LIBs. At least 5 times longer.
Regards,
MHalblaub
Hi MHalblaub
ReplyDeleteThere are certainly inevitable costs and considerations for Australia.
If Australia chooses to ignore the US/UK nuclear route then it is likely that:
- All three CEP contenders are offering or expected to offer LIBs, noting LABs are also expensive.
- LIBs are untested in operational subs and may NOT replace LABs in common (new SSK) usage.
Australia's longterm calculation that AIP cannot handle the US combat system exceeds Japanese (also using a similar combat system) unhappiness with AIP. Australia did not adopt AIP for Collins mainly due to AIP's low power output for high Australian propulsion and combat system demands.
The US SSN combat system that Australia will definitely use on the future submarine ideally requires a nuclear reactor to achieve average electrical power levels.
Still not too late for Australia to buy 4 Virginias (which will more than do the jobs of 6 SSKs) instead.
Regards
Pete
Hi S
ReplyDeleteThanks for the extra info.
I will use part in the current article and part for a new article soon.
Regards
Pete
Dear Pete,
ReplyDeleteI doubt that an US combat system would today overload an AIP.
Just compare the computing power used in 1990
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Macintosh_classic.jpg
(100 Watt for 8 MHz Motorola 68000 with 16/32-bit)
and what we have today
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Imac_16-9.png
(400 Watt for 4.0 GHz i7-6700K with 64/64-bit)
((Power usage is related to the display. The 21.5-inch display version needs just 300 Watt))
The Siemens Fuel Cells provide about 300 kW for a Type 212 submarine. Enough power for 1.000 iMacs with a "small" display.
Main application for computers on submarines are FFT-calculations to provide the nice water fall diagrams. Today's computer hardware has not only a 500 times faster clock speed. It also provides 4 CPUs and 64 bit data (another factor 8 for 32-bit audio - normal computer sound system just use 16 bit).
So the computers are about 4,000 times faster today. I doubt that an AN/BYG needs the same power than in 1990. GDs system was even installed on Brazilian Type 209 submarines just powered by LABs.
The 300 kW on Type 212 were provided by 9 FCM 34 fuel cell modules with a power output of 34 kW each at 630 kg weight (due to the fact that 1 cell is reserve the actual power output is 270 kW). The FCM 120 modules with 120 kW weight 930 kg. So power output according to weight was increased by factor 2.
http://w3app.siemens.com/mcms/infocenter/dokumentencenter/cc/InfocenterLanguagePacks/SINAVY%20PEM%20Fuel%20Cells/sinavy-pem-fuel-cells.pdf
The first methanol reformer for submarines was tested in 1999:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050425213817/http://www.komo.uni-kiel.de/martech/workshop/AG3-Pomm.pdf
Fuel cells for submarines are mature systems. How many commissioned submarines use LIBs today? The three Japanese submarines will be commissioned far to late to make a descent decision in 2016.
Here on page 10 is a nice scaled and dimensioned drawing:
http://vzb.baw.de/publikationen/kolloquien/0/Vortrag_7_Brennstoffzellenantrieb.pdf
You can see how big the complete fuel cell system is and how the engine compartment (to the left) is quieted on Type 212 submarines - a double hull around the diesel engine compartment.
Just the modules encircled with red and yellow belong to the FC (German: Brennstoff-Zellen - BZ) system. The area marked green is a regular switchboard necessary on every type of submarine (just ask for further translations).
Regards,
MHalblaub
Hi Pete,
ReplyDeleteYou might want to see what Israel's New Subs looks like
Israel's Newest And Most Advanced Submarine Is Their Last Line Of Nuclear Deterrence
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-newest-and-most-advanced-submarine-is-their-las-1752459324
Thanks Nicky
ReplyDeleteSome great photos at http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-newest-and-most-advanced-submarine-is-their-las-1752459324
Much of this was a photo shoot for Israeli national pride, for Israel's Navy and for Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu.
If Australia was in the market for a 2,200 ton sub the Dolphin 2 (Israeli 218?) may well be the best in that tonnage. It is another example of a nuclear missile capable diesel/electric sub - what I call SSBK.
See Submarine Matters article on Dolphin 2s, eg. Rahav, at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/israeli-publicity-concerning-nuclear.html
Regards
Pete
Hi MHalblaub [at Jan 15, 1:33AM]
ReplyDeleteYou have presented a wealth of details, arguments and new issues that I'll center an article on next week.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete,
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the Australian's are looking for a Sub similar to the Dolphin 2 from Israel.
Hi Nicky [Jan 15, 2:33 PM]
ReplyDeleteIf Australia was wise (rather than entrapped by the Labor Party's 2009 (diesel powered "SSN" size) Defence White Paper) Australia would do well to have a longer term lo-hi mix.
The lo/low is 6 x medium-large (2,200 ton) submarines with the 218 (called Dolphin 2 in Israel) being the most logical choice. TKMS could begin production in 2 years.
The hi/high would be 4 x Virginia class negotiated more quietly and for longer term 2035-on production. By 2030 India, Russia and China will have significant numbers of SSNs in production and operational. South Korea viewing N Korean developments will have firm breakout to SSN plans. If South Korea does Japan would.
Thats the scheme I've been talking about since:
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/australian-nuclear-sub-option-afr-feb.html and earlier
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/mixing-australian-conventional-and.html
Regards
Pete
Hi Nicky - further on the Dolphin 2 along comes INS Dakar
ReplyDeleteThe third Dolpin 2 is to be named INS Dakar http://www.timesofisrael.com/emotions-bubble-to-surface-over-plan-to-name-new-sub-after-sunken-dakar/ There are three problems.
- Israel's original INS Dakar "sank over 45 years ago killing all 69 crew on board, [stirring] mixed feelings among relatives of the lost mariners," also making Dakar an unlucky name
- INS Dakar sounds like "Dhaka" which is the capital of Muslim Bangladesh. Israelis are a bit (alot) sensitive about Muslims.
- India also uses ship/sub titles of "INS". India also wouldn't be happy with the "INS Dhaka" confusion.
Regards
Pete
The 300KW AIP module may or may not be sufficient without seeing the hardware architecture of AN/BYG.
ReplyDeleteI understand that the AN/BYG is a fault tolerant multi core multi processor parallel computing architecture. So if each of the node has 8 quad core Xeon or Itanium processors and say there are 512 nodes, the power consumption can get big very fast. Essentially it is the same architecture as found today in big critical data centers, quite a bit more sophisticated than 1000 iMACs, much more like a supercomputer.
LIB is getting down on the cost curve. I do not believe it is any more 10X more than LAB, more like 4-5X. If you own a catamaran, and you need a 1000ah battery bank, you will likely go for LIB today.
ReplyDelete