tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post6179401933705911784..comments2024-03-28T19:42:03.012+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Key TKMS Type 218SG details revealed after partial unveilingPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-546516258242690592016-04-14T17:46:14.171+10:002016-04-14T17:46:14.171+10:00The strings are there to prevent the torpedoe guid...The strings are there to prevent the torpedoe guide wire from getting stuck in the propeller. They also act as great noise maker... They cause vibrations in the rudders. Germans are great at solving one small problem and at the same thing causing another.<br />218SG is a enlarged 214. From a TKMS source.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-31315330102489264012015-09-09T14:05:21.617+10:002015-09-09T14:05:21.617+10:00Hi Archi
1/ In the text I said
"One might p...Hi Archi<br /><br />1/ In the text I said<br /><br />"One might plausibly describe the 218 as a:<br /><br />- 214 with a long, 5 meter, plug and a 212A X-plane tail OR<br /><br />- a slight derivative of the Dolphin 2 (without the Dolphin 2's cruciform tail but retaining the Dolphin 2's X-plane rudder tail portion."<br /><br />There are also uncertainties about the contents-structural arrangements in the Dolphin 2 and the future 218.<br /><br />So it almost goes down to belief about "what is a new or sufficiently different submarine to have a new name". Sometimes newness may be mainly marketing. Sometime there is consensus that it is new. Maybe in 6 years we can conclusively say the 218 is new or not.<br /><br />2/ 218 range/speed unknown for next 6 years, 214 known around the 8 knot measure. What is most important for Australia may be 10-11 knots.<br /><br />3/ a Collins build is something Australia shouldn't repeat - but still might<br /><br />4/ True about mini-subs that weigh 5+ tons.<br /><br />The TKMS-HDW designers learnt new things at each stage 209, 212, 214, Dolphins 1 and 2 and are further leaning with the 218. Your claims cannot erase their corporate-learning experiences.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-41725882536087891992015-09-08T21:28:31.844+10:002015-09-08T21:28:31.844+10:00Hi Pete,
I am reposting as I thought I did two da...Hi Pete,<br /><br />I am reposting as I thought I did two days ago but did not get through obviously.<br /><br />1/ I am sorry but, from what you said, the 218SG and the 214 have the same diameter. So, it is just lengthening and definitely the same kin. It is far much difficult to upscale as Navantia proved trying to do it from Scorpene to S80. <br />So TKMS/HDW has still to prove a lot and needless to be a genious to see what is the indstrialiasing challenge will be just by looking at the 216 pressure hull design.<br /><br />2/ I doubt the 218SG would be a match for the Australian context, just for the range. Could somebody prove that a 214/218SG has the capability to go to 10,000nm+ @8-10 knots in mixed transit? I very much doubt so.<br /><br />3/ I am with you. Collin is Australia only for many operational reasons, if not political ones.<br /><br />4/ As for mini sub/UUV/DDS, you can forget all of that on a 218SG / 214 which simply does not enough surface stability.<br /><br />So, no support to gain from 218SG as far as Australia and 216 are concerned.<br /><br />kind regards<br /><br />Archi.Archimedesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-13701064283064508092015-09-07T12:57:01.666+10:002015-09-07T12:57:01.666+10:00Hi Nicky [September 6, 2015 at 3:10 AM ]
Your:
1...Hi Nicky [September 6, 2015 at 3:10 AM ]<br /><br />Your:<br /><br />1st sentence - wrong<br /><br />2nd sentence - maybe<br /><br />3rd sentence - no<br /><br />Re "...will the Type 218SG have the capability for a Mini sub or a dry dock shelter that the US Navy and US Navy Seals use." depends on the German maker and Singapore's choices. No "mini sub" but a diver-SEAL delivery vehicle may be possible.<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-42893548917628634822015-09-06T03:10:31.027+10:002015-09-06T03:10:31.027+10:00Hi Pete,
That's why I think the Type 218SG is ...Hi Pete,<br />That's why I think the Type 218SG is nothing more than evolved Type 214. Which I think they may push to sell to Australia. Don't get me wrong, the Type 214 or Type 21SG would fit perfectly well for Canada and Australia. Then you can sell the Collins to Taiwan, Thailand or the Philippines. Though I do wonder, will the Type 218SG have the capability for a Mini sub or a dry dock shelter that the US Navy and US Navy Seals use.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-39071878881588750802015-09-05T17:38:19.649+10:002015-09-05T17:38:19.649+10:00Hi MHalblaub [at September 4, 2015 10:45 PM]
Yes ...Hi MHalblaub [at September 4, 2015 10:45 PM]<br /><br />Yes Israeli subs may well wait on the seafloor in the Mediterranean, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf also deliver Special Forces, nuclear SLCM. Singaporean subs varying distances from Singapore.<br /><br />http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-359067-galleryV9-domu.jpg shows how the TEN torpedo tubes (with 4 x 650mm) and AIP are the dominant features. It is possible that a 2 meter horizontal tube has been quietly installed in the 2 Dolphin 2s. <br /><br />I think Israeli technicians do considerable converting after they receive the subs from Kiel.<br /><br />Even just 8 x 21 inch torpedo tubes on the 218 may be adequate but with the option of retrofitting a 1.5m Horizontal Multi Porpuse Locks (HMPL). <br /><br />Overall I think a HMPL eventually makes more space organising sense for Singapore than a VMPL. A VMPL may more likely be fitted onto Dolphin 2s because rapid first or second strikes with 6 x nuclear SLCM or small SLBM is more important for Israel's nuclear strategy. <br /><br />Yes both Singapore and Israel need adequate facilities for divers-Special Forces. <br /><br />Here's the inside of a Dolphin 1 (January 2012 or earlier). Even it looks very high tech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TgJPkYvJE <br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-14425684122582464672015-09-05T10:39:00.729+10:002015-09-05T10:39:00.729+10:00Hi Nicky
I think the German designers of the 218 ...Hi Nicky<br /><br />I think the German designers of the 218 would not ignore their latest major design (the Dolphin 2) which draws on Type 212A and Type 214 features.<br /><br />Also it is written at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Singapore_relations#Military :<br /><br />"Over the years, Singapore and Israel enjoy close co-operation. Today, the two countries share military platforms, including early warning aircraft, anti-tank and anti-aircraft missile systems, aircraft and surveillance technologies." So, to that list can now be added the Dolpin 2/Type 218 submarine.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-27526126122390337082015-09-05T06:20:19.678+10:002015-09-05T06:20:19.678+10:00Hi Pete,
That's why I think the Type 218SG is ...Hi Pete,<br />That's why I think the Type 218SG is essentially a marriage of features from the Type 212A and Type 214. Even the Hull and Sail, share the features of the Type 214.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-76359245064351850832015-09-04T22:45:57.967+10:002015-09-04T22:45:57.967+10:00Dear Pete,
according to the location of Singapore...Dear Pete,<br /><br />according to the location of Singapore and Israel I thing both have one common mission aim for their submarines: sit on the seafloor and just wait. <br /><br />Here is a nice drawing of the Dolphin2-class submarine:<br />http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-359067-galleryV9-domu.jpg<br /><br />A nice space could be created by adding the extra two meter for Type 218SG to the chamber right behind the pressure hull. On the second floor enough space could be available to open a big hatche.<br /><br />Here a rare view of the current configuration of Dolphin2 torpedo tubes:<br />http://dontbombiran.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/dolphin_t1.jpg<br />(source: http://dontbombiran.info/?p=104)<br /><br />The two tubes to the left are 650 mm high. So the space between the two horizontal beams is about 1.9 m high.<br /><br />I could imagine that the Type 218 SG has 8 normal 21 inch torpedo tubes and an additional Horizontal Multi Porpuse Lock (HMPL) on the upper deck. <br /><br />On the other side I could imagine a special diver chamber right behind the sail like on Type 212A second batch. The second batch is therefore about 1.5 m longer. <br /><br />The diver equipment is stored on top of the submarine. Every meter counts for diver.<br /><br />I doubt a big lock for Singapore. On the other side could a big lock be interesting to place big items on the sea floor.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-50634376650876058802015-09-03T19:59:10.652+10:002015-09-03T19:59:10.652+10:00Hi Anonymous
Yes China or Singapore's neighb...Hi Anonymous <br /><br />Yes China or Singapore's neighbours could try choke of the Singapore Straits with airpower, ships, subs and land-based anti-ship missiles.<br /><br />This is why Singapore's advanced F15SG are their to shoot intruding aircraft down, strafe anti-ship batteries. Missiles from Singapore future 218SG subs will most probably also be capable against land targets and even air targets. And then there is Singapore's US ally to lend a hand :)<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-65310381018683023412015-09-03T19:50:45.757+10:002015-09-03T19:50:45.757+10:00MHalblaub
Yes there is indeed a notable wire/cab...MHalblaub <br /><br />Yes there is indeed a notable wire/cable between the X-rudder planes http://smnzone.scalemodellingno.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2-HN-Ma-Revell-German-Submarine-Class-212A-1.144.jpg and also scroll half way down on http://www.scalemodellingnow.com/hnmaritimekits-revell-german-u-boat-class-212a and there is a close-up of the X-rudder wire/cable.<br />Maybe to reduce noise and/or anti-cavitation - which may be the same thing. <br /><br />Thanks for http://aviationweek.com/defense/distant-islands-central-japanese-defense-strategy?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20150821_AW-05_7&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000001203925&utm_campaign=3561&utm_medium=email&elq2=958a7cb8d46441d8819d8b80061f0bea ,<br /><br />The part most relevant to submarines is:<br /><br />"The Japanese submarine force, meanwhile, will increase to 22 operational (nontraining) boats from the decades-old standard force level of 16. According to Japanese defense analysts, an important reason for this is that China has many paths to the Pacific, whereas the force only needed to cover four straits to bottle up the Soviet fleet during the Cold War.<br /><br />The government is increasing the submarine force through the economic measure of simply running them for longer than the previous average of 18 years, so the increment will be six boats that are old by Japanese standards, instead of six of average age. The submarines’ effectiveness should be multiplied by information from improved surveillance of the straits they would cover."<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-71530292528539152292015-09-03T19:25:25.697+10:002015-09-03T19:25:25.697+10:00Hi Nicky
218 has 212A, 214 and most fully (offici...Hi Nicky<br /><br />218 has 212A, 214 and most fully (officially unacknowledged) Dolphin 2 aspects. I think.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-30321472824420564622015-09-03T15:52:40.037+10:002015-09-03T15:52:40.037+10:00You do not need submarines to choke off the Singap...You do not need submarines to choke off the Singapore Straits. Shore based long range anti ship batteries (or launched from F16, F15SG) will do more than just fine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18347307710942942212015-09-03T08:29:47.220+10:002015-09-03T08:29:47.220+10:00Dear Pete,
interesting part about the model is th...Dear Pete,<br /><br />interesting part about the model is the ring around the propeller. The propeller seems to be symbolized by a silver ring but the outer black ring is fixed to the submarine by 8 struts. This could be a device to produce bubbles to reduce the remaining propeller noise. A similar device could be the strings between the Type 212A rudders. <br /><br />Here something about Japanese submarine tactics:<br />http://aviationweek.com/defense/distant-islands-central-japanese-defense-strategy?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20150821_AW-05_7&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000001203925&utm_campaign=3561&utm_medium=email&elq2=958a7cb8d46441d8819d8b80061f0beaMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-22768710996063782812015-09-03T03:57:06.317+10:002015-09-03T03:57:06.317+10:00Hi Pete,
I think the Type 218SG is essentially a T...Hi Pete,<br />I think the Type 218SG is essentially a Type 214 but stretchered out and enlarged. It makes the Type 218 on par with the Dolphin class SSK. Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.com