tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post4145129178342996010..comments2024-03-29T14:20:26.555+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Philippines Increasingly Interested in SubmarinesPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-79470942518623107272015-10-16T16:38:19.729+11:002015-10-16T16:38:19.729+11:00Hi Anonymous [at October 15, 2015 at 9:02 PM]
All...Hi Anonymous [at October 15, 2015 at 9:02 PM]<br /><br />All the comments on Indonesia "Hunt for the Putin Kilo or Amur" quest are getting interesting. I'll write up some of your knowledgable comments for the next article.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-14607576554267613572015-10-15T21:02:28.705+11:002015-10-15T21:02:28.705+11:00Re: Philippine Defense Budget
Philippine has this ...Re: Philippine Defense Budget<br />Philippine has this practice where the "defense budget" is actually composed of several separate budgets. There is the general Department of National Defense Budget, which covers most of personnel and operational costs. There is the AFP Modernization Fund, which is a special fund from which the DND is supposed to buy new stuff/upgrade current stuff. There some other budgets that is minor and I'm not familiar with anyway.<br /><br />For 2016 the proposed defense budget was some 111 billion peso for the DND, some 25 billion peso (around $546 million) for the Modernization Fund, and some other items I don't actually know for a total 172 billion peso. (I'm pulling this from memory, so I might be off.) This can be verified easily by looking at Philippine media sources. Filipino defense enthusiasts often focus on the 25 billion number because this is really what they can "play" with and I suppose it possible this is then considered the whole defense budget by foreign media unfamiliar with Philippine practice. I am not saying that you are wrong about the impossibility of buying submarines currently, just that the $546 million is not the entirety of their defense budget.<br /><br />As for Polish submarines... I make no judgment on that. And it's too early anyway. We don't know whether their next government will continue the current policy or go back to dismantling their defense or speed up the rebuilding. A few of their candidates have spoken for rapprochement with China, and the rest is still silent on the defense issue. The Philippines really need to up their defense budget to around 2% GDP first.<br /><br />Re: Indonesia<br />Indonesian military officials and politicians, egged by Russia, have often stated that they are going to buy this or that from Russia without consideration on what they're going to use it for or how they are going to pay for it. There is a small but vocal Russophile faction, but most of the time the sane majority prevails and those statements were quietly ignored. However, once in a while they do throw a bone at the Russophiles to placate and retain their political support. I rate the Su-35 procurement as likely, and the 5 Amur submarine procurement as unlikely. A half-half compromise of 8 Su-35 and 2 Amur is also possible. Militarily that is nuts, but hey, politics. Getting both is financially impossible and irresponsible. Even Russian credit doesn't stretch that far.<br /><br />Russia also make lots of noise about selling nuclear power plants to Indonesia. This is actually pretty plausible. Despite the Ring of Fire location, the physics of plate tectonics actually means that there are several geologically stable spots in Indonesia. Some of these spots are sufficiently inland or sheltered to be safe from tsunami. Whether Indonesia will build utility scale nuclear power plants and who gets the contract remains to be seen though. I am quite certain that Indonesia will build them eventually though. Indonesia will run out of natural gas within 20 years and of coal within 50 years and despite all the talk about renewables, the actual growth rate of renewable energy use in Indonesia is not enough.<br /><br />However, in the near term, the only confirmed plan to build a nuclear reactor in Indonesia is the 30 MW experimental reactor in Serpong to replace the 30 year old experimental reactor of similar rating (used to make medical isotopes and breeding new rice variants, among other things, but not actually connected to the power grid) that is reaching its end of service life. Russia is likely to get this project, but this is still far far away from an actual nuclear power plant. Russian media has this habit of talking big, but the actual realization is often much smaller and more uncertain than they make it to be.<br /><br />(And because I am a nuclear energy proponent, let me add that the self-imposed ban on Australian nuclear energy is crazy. Technology has advanced. The Cold War is over. Howard is right.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-39442132224144834532015-10-15T15:22:29.954+11:002015-10-15T15:22:29.954+11:00Hi Anonymous on Russia Indonesia [at Oct 15, 2015 ...Hi Anonymous on Russia Indonesia [at Oct 15, 2015 2:10PM]<br /><br />Thanks for the 5 Amur tip. $3 billion sounds like what they would cost - for a start. <br /><br />I googled up http://www.therussophile.org/3-key-areas-in-russia-indonesia-ties.html/ <br /><br />which says:<br /><br />“In September 2015, the Indonesian government said it would buy a squadron of Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to replace its outdated U.S.-made F-5 Tigers. Jakarta also plans to buy 5 Russian submarines.<br /><br />Initially Indonesia looked at buying Kilo-class diesel electric submarines, but later chose the more advanced Amur-class submarine, which is the export version of the Lada-class. Russia is ready to loan Indonesia $3 billion for these purchases.<br /><br />According to industry analysts, Indonesia may also be looking to buy medium-range anti-aircraft missiles. The country already has a number of Sukhoi fighter jets, Mi-17 and Mi-35 helicopters, BMP-3 amphibious infantry fighting vehicles, one BTR-80 wheeled amphibious armored personnel carrier and Kalashnikov AK-101 and AK-102 rifles.<br /><br />Nuclear energy<br /><br />In June 2015, the countries signed a Memorandum of Understanding on the construction of large nuclear reactors and floating nuclear power stations.<br /><br />In an interview with RBTH Indonesia, [Indonesia’s] ambassador to Russia Djauhari Oratmangun said nuclear power plants could help meet Indonesia’s growing demand for electricity.”<br /><br />My Comments - The Amurs and Russia-Indonesia building reactors in an earthquake/Tsunami zone are particularly significant if they eventually come true.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-39417819774338520312015-10-15T14:55:26.303+11:002015-10-15T14:55:26.303+11:00Hi Anonymous re Philippine subs [at October 14, 20...Hi Anonymous re Philippine subs [at October 14, 2015 at 9:23 PM]<br /><br />Latest calculations is that the entire annual Philippine defence budget is around US$546 million. This may be enough for one NEW submarine (with spares and training) if the Philippine Army, Air Force and surface ship types spend nothing for a year.<br /><br />The Polish subs are too old and hence would be unsafe. The Philippine Navy may rely on 50 year old used US Coast Guard Cutters and used US Navy ships but submarines need to be in good repair to be safe.<br /><br />On the 3 Improved Chang Bogo (Type 209) subs for Indonesia see the South Korean Company (DSME) as in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Bogo-class_submarine#Sales indicates:<br />"In December 2011, DSME won a contract to build three 1,400-ton Chang Bogo-class submarines for Indonesia at a cost of $1.07 billion. Construction of the submarines will start in January 2012 for delivery by 2015 and 2016, for commissioning in the first half of 2018."<br /><br />Note the table under that statement.<br /><br />The Indonesian Navy has been talking about Kilos for years - a bit like the Pakistanis talking about those elusive "8" Chinese subs. If Indonesia wants to buy from Putin it can enjoy the isolation.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-29369389112538620252015-10-15T14:10:02.050+11:002015-10-15T14:10:02.050+11:00Addendum to my comment from yesterday. An article ...Addendum to my comment from yesterday. An article from rtbh.com confirmed the $3 billion credit. Also said that it will be 5 Amur submarines. I am skeptical of rtbh.com, but the $3 billion matches what Indonesian sources said, so that part seems correct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-31863354524247789522015-10-14T21:23:55.780+11:002015-10-14T21:23:55.780+11:00A correction regarding the Philippine defense budg...A correction regarding the Philippine defense budget. The money earmarked to modernize the Philippines armed forces converts to $540 million. Well, maybe $530 million back in Sept. But anyway, you missed a zero. Still not enough. Despite what the media says, cooler-headed Filipino observers guessed that a submarine procurement is more likely 5-10 years away, and it's likely to start by acquiring a used submarines from somewhere. Those guys did consider the Polish submarines, but there really isn't any point talking about it until after a year or two after the upcoming election when we can see how much funding the new government is willing to allocate on defense.<br /><br />I can find no evidence that Indonesia is getting refurbished submarines from South Korea. At best as I can tell, it was a rumor spread by some Russian fanboys for who knows what reason.<br /><br />Indonesia's extravagant wish to buy 10 Russian Kilo was, as far as I can tell, driven by its defense minister, who seems to be a pretty hardcore Russophile. Also, apparently Russia promised a three billion dollar credit line to finance this. I can find no corroboration for this supposed credit line though. Cooler-headed Indonesian observers I talked with says that Indonesia may buy two Improved Kilo, but there is nothing concrete about that and it might be zero given the current Indonesian economic weakness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-67700871554641908982015-09-15T03:18:31.330+10:002015-09-15T03:18:31.330+10:00Hi Pete,
I know, if only the Philippines had the U...Hi Pete,<br />I know, if only the Philippines had the US Budget but they don't in reality.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-44831509341743032712015-09-14T23:59:30.376+10:002015-09-14T23:59:30.376+10:00Hi Nicky [September 14, 2015 at 9:56 PM]
Yes the ...Hi Nicky [September 14, 2015 at 9:56 PM]<br /><br />Yes the Filipino blog is certainly smitten with subs http://maxdefense.blogspot.com.au/search?q=submarines . If only the Philippines had one US$Billion to buy a couple.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-23067583476443495052015-09-14T21:56:58.285+10:002015-09-14T21:56:58.285+10:00Hi pete,
This may Interest you because I think the...Hi pete,<br />This may Interest you because I think the Philippines have gone crazy thinking they are planning on getting a submarine. Check out what this one blogger has to say. http://maxdefense.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/clarifications-on-reported-submarines.htmlNickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-89603414903197594942015-09-14T09:43:37.431+10:002015-09-14T09:43:37.431+10:00Hi Nicky
All very true.
The Philippines attracte...Hi Nicky<br /><br />All very true.<br /><br />The Philippines attracted much US military support (the Philippines main national money earner) when the Russians had large forces in Vietnam 1970s-about 1990. Now the Russians have only small forces there and Vietnam is a communist-capitalist hybrid. So the US is unwilling to bankroll the Philippine military or maintain large US bases there.<br /><br />Turning to Indonesia - its Navy has had some extravagant ideas of having 10 Kilos on top of the three new Chang Bogo/209s they're buying. <br /><br />Indonesia is not that rich per capita. So maintaining and crewing 13 subs while having a balance of surface units is way beyond Indonesia.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-91095377965899947882015-09-14T02:30:35.656+10:002015-09-14T02:30:35.656+10:00Hi Pete,
That's why I think both Taiwan and th...Hi Pete,<br />That's why I think both Taiwan and the Philippines are over reaching. The Philippines are the worst case cause they don't even have a reliable Surface Navy and to think they want submarines without a reliable Navy with missiles and torpedo's is laughable. I simply think the Philippines are living in the Post Korean war, Vietnam war era mentality.<br /><br />As far as Indonesia, I simply think that they don't have enough for their Area.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-67176990519736747472015-09-13T17:16:45.277+10:002015-09-13T17:16:45.277+10:00Hi Nicky
On Indonesian and Taiwan subs
Thanks. I...Hi Nicky<br /><br />On Indonesian and Taiwan subs<br /><br />Thanks. I read http://www.globalindonesianvoices.com/22464/two-submarines-too-little-for-indonesia/ and immediately found it inaccurate when it said "Singapore which has one submarine" Singapore has four and "Japan (3 submarines)" Japan would have around 20 submarines. Indonesian journalists usually have no idea about subs. <br /><br />Where the Indonesian article says "According to Ade Supandi, the Navy had ordered three new submarines from South Korea. They will be ready by April 2017, the admiral said." It is possible the first TWO improved Chang Bogo class (Type 209) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine#Chang_Bogo_upgrades.2Fvariant for Indonesia might be handed over to Indonesia by 2017. However Indonesia says it want to build the THIRD Chang Bogo in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. That Third sub may take several additional years to complete.<br /><br />Taiwan intend to spend tiny sums see http://news.yahoo.com/taiwan-launch-homegrown-submarine-plan-initial-t-3-050214414.html . Even US$100 million per year is a sum for design and planning, not construction, of one 1,000 ton sub. Taiwan would need to spend US$ 1 Billion a year to start to build subs.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-41933598739685522762015-09-13T16:36:45.184+10:002015-09-13T16:36:45.184+10:00Hi Pete,
It seems like the Philippines or Taiwan ...Hi Pete, <br />It seems like the Philippines or Taiwan are just hoping that the US will either buy the submarines for them or simply finance them. I don't think the Philippines have the money to seriously buy any SSK Submarines, let alone a 2nd hand Submarine. On the other hand, Taiwan has Submarines, it's just a matter of them building that capability to build their own. Which is why I think the Philippines are too early into the SSK Submarine game.<br /><br />Also, Here's something on the Issue with Indonesia and their Submarines.<br />http://www.globalindonesianvoices.com/22464/two-submarines-too-little-for-indonesia/ Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56219695373702149762015-09-13T12:41:51.613+10:002015-09-13T12:41:51.613+10:00Hi Nicky
Thanks for locating http://www.mb.com.ph...Hi Nicky<br /><br />Thanks for locating http://www.mb.com.ph/ph-plans-to-acquire-submarine-navy-captain-now-schooling-in-germany/<br /><br />Looks like the Philippines, like Taiwan, are just hoping against hope that some country, like the US, will buy submarines for them. <br /><br />Neither the Philippine, nor Taiwan, is talking the serious money to buy submarines or build them.<br /><br />Note that the P25-billion (P + Philippin Peso) only amounts to just over US$53 million for the Entire Philippines defence force. <br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-66507612963284581772015-09-13T03:27:19.781+10:002015-09-13T03:27:19.781+10:00Hi pete,
Check out this story and looks like the P...Hi pete,<br />Check out this story and looks like the Philippines are desperate for Submarines <br />http://www.mb.com.ph/ph-plans-to-acquire-submarine-navy-captain-now-schooling-in-germany/Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-16569684406620889272015-06-20T10:09:29.054+10:002015-06-20T10:09:29.054+10:00Hi Nicky
I propose to market a new development of...Hi Nicky<br /><br />I propose to market a new development of South Korea's Dolgorae class sub to the ppines <br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolgorae-class_submarine<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-4438044005328996462015-06-20T09:54:58.502+10:002015-06-20T09:54:58.502+10:00Hi Peter,
Here's the $64,000 dollar question. ...Hi Peter,<br />Here's the $64,000 dollar question. What mini sub or coastal SSK sub do you see as a beginner SSK submarine for the PhilippinesNickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-38908085506210780932015-06-15T21:12:25.201+10:002015-06-15T21:12:25.201+10:00Hi Nicky
The Vietnmamese route of stating with m...Hi Nicky<br /><br />The Vietnmamese route of stating with mini-subs (it started with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo-class_submarine ) would sound best for the Philippines on cost and technical risk grounds. <br /><br />South Korea would probably be the best supplier with experience in mini-subs, can build them and then build larger subs for the Philippines. Politically the Philippines can't really seek North Korean or Russian help. South Korea is much more viable politically.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-62184361966181021642015-06-15T04:07:57.955+10:002015-06-15T04:07:57.955+10:00Hi Peter,
Your right that that for the Philippines...Hi Peter,<br />Your right that that for the Philippines to get in the Submarine game, they need to have Engineers and technically minded officers. Right now they don't have any and like I said if the Philippines ever wants to get into the Submarine game, its going to take them at least 10 to 20 years. They need to revamp their education system to support submarines. As I see it, the Philippines have a long, road before they ever venture into the Submarine game. If they do want Submarines, would you think the Bangladesh, Singapore or Vietnam plan would work for them.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-54198823578126970582015-06-14T17:09:09.012+10:002015-06-14T17:09:09.012+10:00Hi Nicky
Yes there are no missiles on https://en....Hi Nicky<br /><br />Yes there are no missiles on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRP_Gregorio_del_Pilar_(PF-15) "considered as one of the most modern warships in Southeast Asia" but launched in 1965.<br /><br />Some comptition to obtain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Jarvis_(WHEC-725) but Bangladesh triumphed.<br /><br />Up to 42 all-gun 15m https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Navy#Multi-purpose_attack_craft_.28MPAC.29 on the way. <br /><br />Many plans for missile carrying ships, naval helicopters, fast jets.<br /><br />Maybe a US return to Subic Bay will again resolve the need for a modern navy http://www.smh.com.au/world/philippines-divided-over-us-return-to-subic-bay-20121119-29m4m.html<br /><br />Yes having engineers and technically minded officers are an essential preliminary for inherently risky submarines ops.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-67997904383898452402015-06-13T02:42:01.814+10:002015-06-13T02:42:01.814+10:00Hi Pete,
The problem I see with the Philippines is...Hi Pete,<br />The problem I see with the Philippines is that they don't have a surface navy to build on. They don't even have Corvettes, FAC's and Frigates. All they have is Gunboat frigates and Gunboat patrol boats. They talk about getting a Frigate, but that seems to be put on hold or it's full of crap. I think the problem with the Philippines is that they squandered their military for over 2 decades and in that time the world has modernized and they seem to be stuck in the 60's era military.<br /><br />So for them to say they want Submarines and haven't built a creditable Surface Navy with Frigates, Corvettes and FAC's with creditable ASW/ASUW and AAW capabilities is so ridiculous. At the moment their only largest ship is the used Hamilton class Cutters from the US Coast Guard. They don't even have one missile or one torpedo in their fleet. They are just a Gunboat Navy and haven't built the capability.<br /><br />I have seen so many Filipino's who tried to argue with me over them claiming they are getting this and getting that. I have seen them claim to say they are getting the Incheon class Frigate or F-16's or Gripen's. The problem with them is that they can't see reality and the reality of their current budget, GDP and Economy can't support getting submarines without getting a reliable Surface Navy first.<br /><br />Though, if the Philippines were to get Submarines, it would be within the 10 to 15 year range. That is because they have to build up their Surface Navy capability with Frigates, Corvettes and Fast attack Craft with ASUW/ASW and AAW capability. They have to have a reliable Air force to protect the Navy and have a reliable Air defense.<br /><br />If the Philippines wanted Submarines, they have to start first with educating their engineer's. Build up the infrastructure and industry to support submarines. Build up Education institutions to support submarine training and education. At the same time, they have to start sending people overseas to learn submarine operations.<br /><br />As for the Philippines getting Submarines, I do think the Older Chang Bogo class SSK, Kobben class SSK, Södermanland-class submarine, Type 206 and older type 209's, Sauro-class submarine and Agosta-class submarine from Spain are one option as entry level beginners submarine. They would need entry level submarines before they move up to the AIP.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-44045173163279696882015-06-12T20:17:45.442+10:002015-06-12T20:17:45.442+10:00Hi Nicky
I like your photograph. One hump or two?...Hi Nicky<br /><br />I like your photograph. One hump or two?<br /><br />Good thinking on the Södermanland-class. They already have Stirling air independent propulsion and Sweden is used to tropicalising its subs (2 Archers, new airconditioning, for Singapore). <br /><br />Yes Södermanlands, Kobbens, 206s-207s, Chang Bogos - so many subs out there to enjoy. I wish I could afford at least a Kobben for the weekend :)<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-75327136727971205572015-06-12T20:04:36.448+10:002015-06-12T20:04:36.448+10:00Dear MHalblaub
Used Chang Bogos for the Philippin...Dear MHalblaub<br /><br />Used Chang Bogos for the Philippine Navy might make a good compromise as they are big enough and not too old.<br /><br />Are you sure Indonesia is receiving USED Chang Bogos? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Bogo-class_submarine#Sales indicates:<br /><br />"In December 2011, DSME won a contract to build three 1,400-ton Chang Bogo-class submarines for Indonesia at a cost of $1.07 billion. Construction of the submarines will start in January 2012 for delivery by 2015 and 2016, for commissioning in the first half of 2018."<br /><br />Well if the Philippines wants Kobben-class I'm happy to volunteer as an adviser in the sale :) Do you speak Polish at all?<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-86568497132147877662015-06-12T10:53:57.530+10:002015-06-12T10:53:57.530+10:00Hi Anonymous [at June 11, 2015 at 2:54 PM]
You ar...Hi Anonymous [at June 11, 2015 at 2:54 PM]<br /><br />You are probably right - however a have a few points-hopes :) <br /><br />- Sometimes Submarine Services develop differently from surface "skimmers" navy. Submariners forming a tight group who are acutely aware of the need for the safe and efficient functioning and tactics of their subs. <br /><br />- The Chinese can easily see and "lean on" Philippine patrol ships-boats but can't see (hopefully very cautious about) any future Philippine subs.<br /><br />- If the Philippines starts to consider new subs now it will likely take 7-10 years until they're delivered - so much progress in surface ship efficiency can be achieved in that time.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-27702116904419649252015-06-12T09:35:57.386+10:002015-06-12T09:35:57.386+10:00What about the Södermanland-class submarine that a...What about the Södermanland-class submarine that are due to be retired in 2019/2020. They could be one option to get them started in the submarine game. I was thinking that the Kobben class Submarine, Type 206, older Chang Bogo class SSK and Södermanland-class submarine are all good entry level SSK submarines for the Philippines.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.com