tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post2785102247305770527..comments2024-03-30T00:14:23.992+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Offshore Patrol Vessel (SEA 1180) CEP occuring right now Pete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-16007414039249445642016-03-29T00:45:51.241+11:002016-03-29T00:45:51.241+11:00Hi ONiel
A quadruple size 1,500 tonne https://en....Hi ONiel<br /><br />A quadruple size 1,500 tonne https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyvefisken-class_patrol_vessel with a steel hull and capable of taking helicopter and with far less armament (just 25mm auto cannon and 2 x 50 cal) might do nicely.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-19845149904123775812016-03-29T00:36:10.628+11:002016-03-29T00:36:10.628+11:00Hi Pete,
I remember well when they were picking th...Hi Pete,<br />I remember well when they were picking the new boat to replace the Fremantle Class, I find it ironic that they had the chance to get the Flyvefisken Class but went with Austral. <br />I think a bigger version of the Flyvefisken Class would easily cover<br />All the 3 classes were trying to cover now, would provide wonderful flexibility and teeth to the Navy if we need to back up the Frigates in times of crisis. <br />Don't know how the 'layer of fiberglass either side of a core of PVC cell foam' will hold up in the tropics though. <br />Its got great range & speed in such a compact design. <br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyvefisken-class_patrol_vesselAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01647646945803452501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-7511298048769219422016-03-28T09:00:19.465+11:002016-03-28T09:00:19.465+11:00What I think Australia needs is a patrol boat that...What I think Australia needs is a patrol boat that is good for protecting their home waters but if need be, be fitted for war. That's how the USCG is set up in that in the event of war the USCG's task is Naval escort and merchant escort.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-72304347203840029972016-03-28T01:30:31.588+11:002016-03-28T01:30:31.588+11:00Hi Anonymous [at 27/3/16 11:19PM]
Thanks for your...Hi Anonymous [at 27/3/16 11:19PM]<br /><br />Thanks for your views.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-49764133872558537852016-03-28T01:27:54.633+11:002016-03-28T01:27:54.633+11:00Hi Nicky
Thanks for the Adroit and BAM info.
Th...Hi Nicky<br /><br />Thanks for the Adroit and BAM info. <br /><br />The Australian Border Force * with its Cape Class patrol boats ** is our equivalent of the US Coast Guard. <br /><br />* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Border_Force<br /><br />** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape-class_patrol_boat<br /><br />As befits Australia's small-medium power status all our vessels are, on average, smaller than US vessels.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-39927238800959552522016-03-28T01:11:23.796+11:002016-03-28T01:11:23.796+11:00HI Pete,
I think Frances, French patrol vessel L&#...HI Pete,<br />I think Frances, French patrol vessel L'Adroit is an experiment, which I think France may build to replace their older patrol boats. Don't get me wrong, Australia needs something like the US Coast Guard to free up the Navy. As for Boats, the need something like the French patrol vessel L'Adroit or Spain's Buque de Acción Marítima (BAM).Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-31227015430522065962016-03-27T23:19:15.306+11:002016-03-27T23:19:15.306+11:00Peter. Navy shouldn't be doing this work anywa...Peter. Navy shouldn't be doing this work anyway. We need a u.s model coast guard. Austal builds Ali crayboats. That's what the armidales are. Steel monohull only way to go. Neither side of politics has the balls to take the toys from navy and border force, and commission a proper coast guard with remit to not only protect the continent but serve the maritime communities and industries. Kim Beasley was the last to try. The new patrol boat build will need to produce vessels capable of working in our Antarctic waters. Unless we want to continue subcontracting the job to sea shepherd. Regards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-16679666883077981902016-03-27T14:45:46.701+11:002016-03-27T14:45:46.701+11:00Hi Nicky [27/3/16 3:48 AM]
The Adroit patrol vess...Hi Nicky [27/3/16 3:48 AM]<br /><br />The Adroit patrol vessel has very clean lines, and ticks may boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_patrol_vessel_L%27Adroit<br /><br />I'm wondering why only one or two have been built.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-57561601528997083772016-03-27T03:48:31.855+11:002016-03-27T03:48:31.855+11:00Hi Pete,
The USCG builds big ships because it has ...Hi Pete,<br />The USCG builds big ships because it has to be able to work with the US Navy in times of war and in times of peace, has to stay on station. A typical NSC deploy for 60 to 90 days at a time. The 270's and 210's normally go out for the max 60 days. The alternative to the NSC is the Holland class OPV or even the Gowind class Corvette is another option. Even France's French patrol vessel L'Adroit is another option that has the capability to be upgunned. <br /><br />Though in my opinion and experience in the USCG, I would say Australia would need something on the level of the River-class patrol vessel, The Buque de Acción Marítima (BAM) from Spain, the Protector-class offshore patrol vessel from New Zealand or even the Patrulleros de Zona Marítima that Chile/Columbia uses. The downside to the Knud Rasmussen-class patrol vessel is that they operate in a similar fashion to the 210 Reliance class cutters and don't have a hangar but a landing pad. Though they have a good working relationship with spain, they should make a deal on the Buque de Acción Marítima.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-29151265989770848902016-03-26T17:09:54.343+11:002016-03-26T17:09:54.343+11:00Hi Pete,
That's why the NSC was built with cap...Hi Pete,<br />That's why the NSC was built with capability to carry migrants and has built in room for combat capability, should the need arise. Even the Holland class OPV has built in room to hold migrants as well. That's something Australia should consider as well.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-67560898719892577882016-03-25T12:15:46.841+11:002016-03-25T12:15:46.841+11:00Hi Nicky
The 4,600 tonne Frigate sized NSC https:...Hi Nicky<br /><br />The 4,600 tonne Frigate sized NSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Cutter is off the charts I caution. Australia wants patrol vessels below 2,000 tonnes. <br /><br />The Danish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Rasmussen-class_patrol_vessel may have lots of potential, modern 2008, small guns. A major need would be the makers showing proof that they could adequately tropicalize/air condition them for mainly tropical careers and with crew + 50 asylum seekers aboard.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56175163750116273852016-03-25T01:50:56.761+11:002016-03-25T01:50:56.761+11:00Hi Pete,
That's why I have heard rumblings th...Hi Pete, <br />That's why I have heard rumblings that Australia and New Zealand was interested in the NSC. As far as the Holland class OPV, the Royal Netherlands Navy uses them and I have rode on them. They are perfect as an OPV for their needs. Even the NSC is on par with the Holland class OPV. That's why I thin for Australia, if they wanted something that has room for combat capability and the capability to carry an over the Horizon boat, the NSC is the way to go. The other option is the Israel's SA'AR 5 corvettes or even the Patrulleros de Zona Marítima that Chile and Columbia uses. I have even heard that Columbia even deployed one of their Patrulleros de Zona Marítima to the Anti Piracy mission. Even the Danish have the Knud Rasmussen-class patrol vessel, which is a Stanflex ship. Even New Zealand has the Protector-class offshore patrol vessel, which would be another option.<br /><br />Even the US Coast Guard's Famous Cutter class, which I did tours on. They are well suited for Australia's missions. Though they are getting replaced with the newer, yet to be designed OPV's. They are expected to carry on until 2030. I hear they are looking at several designs to replace them and I heard the Philippines are going to be inline to get the Famous cutter class in 2030.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-37120813642614419392016-03-24T23:09:34.827+11:002016-03-24T23:09:34.827+11:00PS imacca
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhein...PS imacca<br /><br />The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Oerlikon_Millennium_Gun you metioned looks interesting - especially the ease of retrofitting <br /><br />"The Millennium gun is easy to install as it requires no through deck penetration and needs no supply of coolant, air or ship's power to operate. However, it does need a power supply to recharge its batteries. Installation can take as little as sixty minutes and requires only six square metres of deck space. A Millennium gun and 252 rounds weighs 3,200 kg."<br /><br />Something to place on OPVs if their is an escalations of tensions.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-47722047257914003902016-03-24T23:00:19.769+11:002016-03-24T23:00:19.769+11:00Hi imacca [24/3/16 6:54 PM]
Above just 4 x small ...Hi imacca [24/3/16 6:54 PM]<br /><br />Above just 4 x small Hellfire missiles (only weighing 49 kg each) heavier missiles for the Aussie OPVs may be excessive. They wouldn't want to start a shooting war by trying to hit (patrol boats up to frigates) over the horizon.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-72055955388989160892016-03-24T22:35:46.268+11:002016-03-24T22:35:46.268+11:00Hi Nicky [at 24/3/16 2:46 PM]
Displacing 4,500 to...Hi Nicky [at 24/3/16 2:46 PM]<br /><br />Displacing 4,500 tons the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Cutter "Legends" are much to large for Australia's OPV needs. Hollands are a bit large and Buque de Acción Marítima just over the weight limits. <br /><br />But the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_endurance_cutter#Famous-class_cutter like the Famous or later models come in on displacement (1,800 tons) and easily able to take helicopter. 76mm gun and 2 x 50 cal sound right.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18064967312671257092016-03-24T18:54:40.815+11:002016-03-24T18:54:40.815+11:00Read an article last week on a possible Danish con...Read an article last week on a possible Danish contender for the New Frigate project that uses their "Stanflex" modules. <br /><br />Looking at the Fearless 75 model its sort of similar config with a distinct missile deck. I wonder if they could fit that out with say 1, 4 shot Harpoon launcher and 1 Stanflex VLS module with ESSM?? Add SeaRam or a 35mm Millenium Gun as CIWS then tie it all together with a CEA radar / SAAB combat system. That would give you an OPV with serious teeth if it fits within topside weight considerations. imaccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-51763987225621401962016-03-24T14:59:09.149+11:002016-03-24T14:59:09.149+11:00Hi Pete,
Here's Spec's on the US Coast Gua...Hi Pete,<br />Here's Spec's on the US Coast Guard's Legend class Cutters<br /><br />Name: Legend-class National Security Cutter<br />Builders: Ingalls Shipbuilding<br />Preceded by: Hamilton class<br />Cost: $684m(average), $735m(FY13 ship)<br />In service: 2008–<br />Building: 3<br />Planned: 8<br />Completed: 5<br />Active: 5<br />General characteristics<br />Type: United States Coast Guard Cutter<br />Displacement: 4,500 long tons (4,600 t)<br />Length: 418 feet (127 m)<br />Beam: 54 feet (16 m)<br />Draft: 22.5 feet (6.9 m)<br />Propulsion: <br />Combined diesel and gas<br />2 × 7,400 kW (9,900 hp) MTU 20V 1163 diesels<br />1 × 22 MW (30,000 hp) LM2500 gas turbine engine<br />Speed: Over 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph)<br />Range: 12,000 nautical miles (22,000 km; 14,000 mi)<br />Complement: 113 (14 officers + 99 enlisted)<br />Sensors and processing systems: <br />EADS 3D TRS-16 Air Search Radar<br />SPQ-9B Fire Control Radar<br />AN/SPS-73 Surface Search Radar<br />AN/SLQ-32<br />Electronic warfare<br />& decoys: <br />AN/SLQ-32 Electronic Warfare System<br />2 SRBOC/ 2 x NULKA countermeasures chaff/rapid decoy launcher<br />Armament: <br />1 × Bofors 57 mm gun and Gunfire Control System<br />1 × 20 mm Close-In Weapons System<br />4 × .50 caliber machine guns<br />2 × M240B 7.62 mm machine guns<br />Aircraft carried: 2 x MH-65C Dolphin MCH, or 4 x VUAV or 1 x MH-65C Dolphin MCH and 2 x VUAV<br />Aviation facilities: 50-by-80-foot (15 m × 24 m) flight deck, hangar for all aircraft<br /><br />Here's links to the ship<br />http://ingalls.huntingtoningalls.com/products/nsc/index<br /><br />USCG NSC program office<br />http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/nsc/default.asp<br /><br />Here's a video <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpGyt9u3IA<br /><br />Here's a Virtual Tour of the USCGC Bertholf<br />http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/cgcBertholf/virtualtour/default.htmlNickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-16836048225763430272016-03-24T14:46:47.460+11:002016-03-24T14:46:47.460+11:00Hi Pete,
What would you say if the Australians br...Hi Pete, <br />What would you say if the Australians brought the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter aka Legend class cutters. It would be one boat that can replace the Armidale class Patrol boat. It would give them the capability for Combat capability and even peacetime presence Capability. HII has also pitched the HII NSC patrol frigate and you can see this in the vid as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OJZ8eB_mPA<br /><br />Also the US Coast Guard is working on replacing the 270 and 210 WMEC's aka OPV's. The one design the are looking at is the Holland class OPV or even the Spain's Buque de Acción Marítima.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-6368967755038552982016-03-23T19:51:57.291+11:002016-03-23T19:51:57.291+11:00Hi MHalblaub [23/3/16 7:24 PM]
Yes. There may be ...Hi MHalblaub [23/3/16 7:24 PM]<br /><br />Yes. There may be size creep as the manning/space implications of piloting and servicing a helicopter are realised. How autonomous the helicopter is (or whether a UAV can do the job(s) no winch-rescue) may be compromises made.<br /><br />Still, the emphasis on mainly coast guard like "patrol" rather than combat may mean that many of the combat sensors/electronics and missiles aren't included in the OPV or the helicopter.<br /><br />The need to accomomodate (say) 50 refugees rather than weapon systems is reasonable given the types of jobs the Armidales have faced. Hence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armidale-class_patrol_boat "The high operational tempo from the Operation Resolute and Operation Sovereign Borders border protection and asylum seeker interception operations"<br /><br />Probably stopping at 90 meters (may be a limit) short of https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/blohmvoss-class-meko(R)-a100-corvette.html 98 meters.<br /><br />Probably in the RAN, DoD and wider government there are various factions pushing "combat" vs "civilian patrol". Anticipating and getting the balance is the art.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-76726815199699512162016-03-23T19:24:00.281+11:002016-03-23T19:24:00.281+11:00Dear Pete,
The requirement to carry a helicopter i...Dear Pete,<br />The requirement to carry a helicopter is not a call for a small boat. This ship also needs to carry the helicopter maintanence crew. <br /><br />Maybe even something bigger than the K130:<br />https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/blohmvoss-class-meko(R)-a100-corvette.html<br /><br />Aluminium is a no go for any real warship!<br />The Falklands War showed that even a small disfunctional missile can cause a catastrophic fire.<br /><br />I can imagine that ST Marine offers a license build of the ship mentioned above.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-12417395257318029382016-03-23T16:36:20.941+11:002016-03-23T16:36:20.941+11:00Hi Ztev [23/3/16 1:42 PM]
Quite a mystery that sp...Hi Ztev [23/3/16 1:42 PM]<br /><br />Quite a mystery that specifics for the now superseded General Purpose/Modular requirements (noted at http://www.defence.gov.au/whitepaper/docs/171-lord.pdf ) were left on the Senate website.<br /><br />A bare minimum indication is at the Chief of Navy's 2015 speech http://www.navy.gov.au/media-room/publications/chief-navy-speeches-naval-warfare-officers-association : [with no talk of Tony Abbott's "corvettes" or combatants. Instead: "We will order Off Shore Patrol Vessels to progressively replace Armidale Class Patrol Boats. They will be more capable ships than our Patrol Boats, carry a helicopter and have longer range and endurance that the ACPBs."<br /><br />I'd find is most interesting if Singapore's ST Marine won because of the regional alliance possibilities with Singapore.<br /><br />The Singapore military are close to Australia - noting I saw a Singaporean helicopter training/exercise squadron operating in Oakey, QLD. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/126_Squadron,_Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force#Unit_history .<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-64362033212868582332016-03-23T16:05:11.602+11:002016-03-23T16:05:11.602+11:00Hi MHalblaub [23/3/16 6:21 AM ]
While the Gepard ...Hi MHalblaub [23/3/16 6:21 AM ]<br /><br />While the Gepard would be too small to take 50 extra refugees the K130 may be right - help if its steel. May be smaller than 76mm gun (as " coastal raids" unlikely) and perhaps no AS missiles - though small Hellfires ("for but no with" formula.) <br /><br />http://youtu.be/hYaAc2Uuf_M is an interesting. The Visby 35kn speed would represent engine capacity way over the perhaps 22kn sought.<br /><br />The OPV CEP is interesting because there are many more suppliers than the Submarine CEP.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-63916161456750504452016-03-23T15:52:24.899+11:002016-03-23T15:52:24.899+11:00Hi KQN [23/3/16 4:24AM]
As its a CEP I think its ...Hi KQN [23/3/16 4:24AM]<br /><br />As its a CEP I think its up to foreign or Aus companies to offer solutions that meet the CEP requirements. The CEP is no longer for a general purpose solution to replace 3 or 4 ship classes. Its specifically an OPV replacing the Armidal patrol boats judging by the Chief of Navy's speech (see "SOURCES").<br /><br />Companies competitively offering solutions could conceivably be Incat or Austral or foreign companies aligned with those companies etc. <br /><br />A cautionary experience is that cracking of the Armidale's aluminium hull has apparently been found see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armidale-class_patrol_boat#Problems :<br /><br />"In 2014, the navy reported the recurrence of hull cracking around the engine spaces, which has been attributed to a combination of design issues related to the aluminium hull, and the high tempo of operations."<br /><br />It is likely a (patrol boat style) monohull is sought (not a general purpose multi-hull) and perhaps steel instead of aluminium.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-45545391439199316852016-03-23T13:42:21.851+11:002016-03-23T13:42:21.851+11:00A full criteria for the OPV isnt available yet, bu...A full criteria for the OPV isnt available yet, but back in 2014 in response to the White paper a submission was made by a Mr Lord on the then information. This helps to look at the requirements in SEA 1180 in more practical context based on some details on a Senate website.<br /><br />"<i> It is not clear how these capabilities and requirements came to be posted on the Senate web-site, or if they accurately represented Navy’s requirements at the time. However, they were signed by Chief Capability Development Group and Chief of Navy, dated 31 August 2011, and do provide a basis upon which to provide some comments and observations regarding the broad concept of a General Purpose Vessel.."</i><br /><br />http://www.defence.gov.au/whitepaper/docs/171-lord.pdfZtev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-15221148415683468452016-03-23T06:21:47.127+11:002016-03-23T06:21:47.127+11:00Dear Pete,
The K130 is a replacement for German Ge...Dear Pete,<br />The K130 is a replacement for German Gepard-class fast attack craft. With just 380 t displacement although the ship had a 76 mm cannon and anti ship missiles. <br /><br />The Gepards were misused for peace keeping missions at Lebanon and Somalia. Without air condition and proper survaliance tools. These ships were thought to attack ships of a nearby enemy. <br /><br />Australia may chose a smaller canon but the 76 mm is also nice for coastal raids.<br /><br />Also the RBS15 MK3 are a nice option and not required. <br /><br />The forrest of antennas are also an <br />option. The K130 is also used for SIGINT by German Navy.<br /><br />Another nice comparison to the old Gepard-class is the radar cross section. The K130 has a far smaller one!<br /><br />Well, there are ships with less radar signature:<br />http://youtu.be/hYaAc2Uuf_M<br />The ship by Kockums is also interesting.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.com