tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post2062023036724013687..comments2024-03-28T21:57:32.099+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Japanese Submarine Costings – Oyashios through to Soryu Mark 2sPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-65451724274149822152016-01-16T02:59:35.845+11:002016-01-16T02:59:35.845+11:00LIB is getting down on the cost curve. I do not be...LIB is getting down on the cost curve. I do not believe it is any more 10X more than LAB, more like 4-5X. If you own a catamaran, and you need a 1000ah battery bank, you will likely go for LIB today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-58436117397116024012016-01-16T02:52:11.113+11:002016-01-16T02:52:11.113+11:00The 300KW AIP module may or may not be sufficient ...The 300KW AIP module may or may not be sufficient without seeing the hardware architecture of AN/BYG. <br />I understand that the AN/BYG is a fault tolerant multi core multi processor parallel computing architecture. So if each of the node has 8 quad core Xeon or Itanium processors and say there are 512 nodes, the power consumption can get big very fast. Essentially it is the same architecture as found today in big critical data centers, quite a bit more sophisticated than 1000 iMACs, much more like a supercomputer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-21655193274943801392016-01-15T17:01:16.747+11:002016-01-15T17:01:16.747+11:00Hi Nicky - further on the Dolphin 2 along comes IN...Hi Nicky - further on the Dolphin 2 along comes INS Dakar<br /><br />The third Dolpin 2 is to be named INS Dakar http://www.timesofisrael.com/emotions-bubble-to-surface-over-plan-to-name-new-sub-after-sunken-dakar/ There are three problems.<br /><br />- Israel's original INS Dakar "sank over 45 years ago killing all 69 crew on board, [stirring] mixed feelings among relatives of the lost mariners," also making Dakar an unlucky name<br /><br />- INS Dakar sounds like "Dhaka" which is the capital of Muslim Bangladesh. Israelis are a bit (alot) sensitive about Muslims.<br /><br />- India also uses ship/sub titles of "INS". India also wouldn't be happy with the "INS Dhaka" confusion.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-24242232108493471472016-01-15T15:53:07.426+11:002016-01-15T15:53:07.426+11:00Hi Nicky [Jan 15, 2:33 PM]
If Australia was wise...Hi Nicky [Jan 15, 2:33 PM] <br /><br />If Australia was wise (rather than entrapped by the Labor Party's 2009 (diesel powered "SSN" size) Defence White Paper) Australia would do well to have a longer term lo-hi mix.<br /><br />The lo/low is 6 x medium-large (2,200 ton) submarines with the 218 (called Dolphin 2 in Israel) being the most logical choice. TKMS could begin production in 2 years.<br /><br />The hi/high would be 4 x Virginia class negotiated more quietly and for longer term 2035-on production. By 2030 India, Russia and China will have significant numbers of SSNs in production and operational. South Korea viewing N Korean developments will have firm breakout to SSN plans. If South Korea does Japan would.<br /><br />Thats the scheme I've been talking about since:<br /><br />http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/australian-nuclear-sub-option-afr-feb.html and earlier<br /><br />http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/mixing-australian-conventional-and.html<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-6721780818535795052016-01-15T14:33:53.383+11:002016-01-15T14:33:53.383+11:00Hi Pete,
I wonder if the Australian's are look...Hi Pete,<br />I wonder if the Australian's are looking for a Sub similar to the Dolphin 2 from Israel.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-49150857670791249332016-01-15T10:17:56.525+11:002016-01-15T10:17:56.525+11:00Hi MHalblaub [at Jan 15, 1:33AM]
You have present...Hi MHalblaub [at Jan 15, 1:33AM]<br /><br />You have presented a wealth of details, arguments and new issues that I'll center an article on next week.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56273295033341059052016-01-15T09:42:14.955+11:002016-01-15T09:42:14.955+11:00Thanks Nicky
Some great photos at http://foxtrota...Thanks Nicky<br /><br />Some great photos at http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-newest-and-most-advanced-submarine-is-their-las-1752459324<br /><br />Much of this was a photo shoot for Israeli national pride, for Israel's Navy and for Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu.<br /><br />If Australia was in the market for a 2,200 ton sub the Dolphin 2 (Israeli 218?) may well be the best in that tonnage. It is another example of a nuclear missile capable diesel/electric sub - what I call SSBK.<br /><br />See Submarine Matters article on Dolphin 2s, eg. Rahav, at http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/israeli-publicity-concerning-nuclear.html<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56796016779699691922016-01-15T06:33:49.034+11:002016-01-15T06:33:49.034+11:00Hi Pete,
You might want to see what Israel's N...Hi Pete,<br />You might want to see what Israel's New Subs looks like<br /><br />Israel's Newest And Most Advanced Submarine Is Their Last Line Of Nuclear Deterrence<br />http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/israels-newest-and-most-advanced-submarine-is-their-las-1752459324Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-5194908989865739762016-01-15T01:33:39.623+11:002016-01-15T01:33:39.623+11:00Dear Pete,
I doubt that an US combat system would...Dear Pete,<br /><br />I doubt that an US combat system would today overload an AIP. <br /><br />Just compare the computing power used in 1990 <br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Macintosh_classic.jpg<br />(100 Watt for 8 MHz Motorola 68000 with 16/32-bit)<br /><br />and what we have today<br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Imac_16-9.png<br />(400 Watt for 4.0 GHz i7-6700K with 64/64-bit)<br />((Power usage is related to the display. The 21.5-inch display version needs just 300 Watt))<br /><br />The Siemens Fuel Cells provide about 300 kW for a Type 212 submarine. Enough power for 1.000 iMacs with a "small" display. <br /><br />Main application for computers on submarines are FFT-calculations to provide the nice water fall diagrams. Today's computer hardware has not only a 500 times faster clock speed. It also provides 4 CPUs and 64 bit data (another factor 8 for 32-bit audio - normal computer sound system just use 16 bit). <br /><br />So the computers are about 4,000 times faster today. I doubt that an AN/BYG needs the same power than in 1990. GDs system was even installed on Brazilian Type 209 submarines just powered by LABs.<br /><br />The 300 kW on Type 212 were provided by 9 FCM 34 fuel cell modules with a power output of 34 kW each at 630 kg weight (due to the fact that 1 cell is reserve the actual power output is 270 kW). The FCM 120 modules with 120 kW weight 930 kg. So power output according to weight was increased by factor 2. <br />http://w3app.siemens.com/mcms/infocenter/dokumentencenter/cc/InfocenterLanguagePacks/SINAVY%20PEM%20Fuel%20Cells/sinavy-pem-fuel-cells.pdf<br /><br />The first methanol reformer for submarines was tested in 1999:<br />https://web.archive.org/web/20050425213817/http://www.komo.uni-kiel.de/martech/workshop/AG3-Pomm.pdf<br /><br />Fuel cells for submarines are mature systems. How many commissioned submarines use LIBs today? The three Japanese submarines will be commissioned far to late to make a descent decision in 2016. <br /><br /><br />Here on page 10 is a nice scaled and dimensioned drawing:<br />http://vzb.baw.de/publikationen/kolloquien/0/Vortrag_7_Brennstoffzellenantrieb.pdf<br />You can see how big the complete fuel cell system is and how the engine compartment (to the left) is quieted on Type 212 submarines - a double hull around the diesel engine compartment. <br /><br />Just the modules encircled with red and yellow belong to the FC (German: Brennstoff-Zellen - BZ) system. The area marked green is a regular switchboard necessary on every type of submarine (just ask for further translations).<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-87801882192895154052016-01-14T12:27:43.278+11:002016-01-14T12:27:43.278+11:00Hi S
Thanks for the extra info.
I will use part ...Hi S<br /><br />Thanks for the extra info.<br /><br />I will use part in the current article and part for a new article soon.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-46608381148704891982016-01-14T12:25:31.770+11:002016-01-14T12:25:31.770+11:00Hi MHalblaub
There are certainly inevitable costs...Hi MHalblaub<br /><br />There are certainly inevitable costs and considerations for Australia.<br /><br />If Australia chooses to ignore the US/UK nuclear route then it is likely that:<br /><br />- All three CEP contenders are offering or expected to offer LIBs, noting LABs are also expensive.<br /><br />- LIBs are untested in operational subs and may NOT replace LABs in common (new SSK) usage.<br /><br />Australia's longterm calculation that AIP cannot handle the US combat system exceeds Japanese (also using a similar combat system) unhappiness with AIP. Australia did not adopt AIP for Collins mainly due to AIP's low power output for high Australian propulsion and combat system demands.<br /><br />The US SSN combat system that Australia will definitely use on the future submarine ideally requires a nuclear reactor to achieve average electrical power levels. <br /><br />Still not too late for Australia to buy 4 Virginias (which will more than do the jobs of 6 SSKs) instead.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-85623657348136052712016-01-14T00:33:42.995+11:002016-01-14T00:33:42.995+11:00Dear Pete,
Some thoughts about battery prices.
A...Dear Pete,<br /><br />Some thoughts about battery prices.<br /><br />A rough estimation is 1/8 up to 1/4 of SSK displacement is batteries weight. That would be 500 t for a 4.000 t submarine. <br /><br />A standard car battery with 200 Ah weights about 65 kg and costs about 300€. Value just for lead acid battery about 2.5 million €.<br /><br />A LIB with the same AmperHours costs about 10 times more.<br /><br />So the price for LIBs would be around 25 million on the low end. With more capacity for a submarine without an AIP the factor is at least 2. <br /><br />50 million € + just for the naked LIBs and every time again for a battery replacement.<br /><br />A fuel cell AIP offers far more submerged operation time than LIBs. At least 5 times longer.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-48870112810484424122016-01-13T22:58:01.295+11:002016-01-13T22:58:01.295+11:00Sentence: “First year costs” *snips”
Comment
First...Sentence: “First year costs” *snips”<br />Comment<br />First year costs are expenses related to the initial investment in order to fulfill the production contracts of defense equipment. From the viewpoint of proper budget management and reduce corporate risk, First year costs are blanket contract and classified into direct costs. Example: 118,833(FY2016) in 28SS’s MoD Requested budget<br /><br />Sentence: “In the case of 19SS, build expenses (53 billion yen) consist of government supply (23 billion yen) and build cost [labour?] (30 billion yen).<br />Comment<br />Aim of the government supply is prevention from the double GCIP. Build cost is manufacturing cost in equation (3). Labor cost belongs to direct cost in equation (3).<br /><br />Sentence: “-possible extra cost for the (possible) introduction of the new snorkel system”<br />Comment<br />Possible modifications are (1) snorkel system including new diesel generator, (2) additional LIBs, (3) floating deck and (4) new sonar system. Estimated costs are 2 and 3billion yen for (1) [only diesel generators] and (2) [additional 20 LIB arrays], respectively. Considering increased cost (+11.5 billion yen) of 27SS/28SS and cost effects of AIP elimination (+ 4 billion yen) and substitution of LABs by LIBs (-1.5 billion yen), i.e., 14 billion yen in total, various important modifications can be conducted. Modification (1) will be firstly conducted to exert performance of LIBs. <br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com