tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post1746210814920332003..comments2024-03-30T00:14:23.992+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: The TKMS Type 212CD - MTU12V4000s vs current MTU16V396sPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-84771246350849660572019-02-15T01:46:53.519+11:002019-02-15T01:46:53.519+11:00Hi Pete (contined from 12/2/19 6:30 PM)
According...Hi Pete (contined from 12/2/19 6:30 PM)<br /><br />According to TKMS[1], size of 212CD is similar to the NL Warlus class subamine [2]. Then, two MTU diesels are installed parallel which is better than tandem arrangement. I did not expect chage of beam in 212CD, because it sometimes means different submarine.<br /><br />So, comment (12/2/19 6:30 PM) should be reviewed. Parallel arrangement of two MTU and L/D=ca.8-9 may be correct.<br /><br />One of differences between 212A and 214 submarines is arrangement of LOx tanks where the tanks are arranged between pressure hull and light hull for the former and are arranged inside of pressure hull for the latter, but the arrangement of LOx for 212CD is unknown.<br /><br />As 212CD seems to satisfies size requirement, unless SAAB-Damen does not offer LIBs, win in the Warlus replacement tender is perhaps difficult.<br /><br />[1] https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.nl/en/evolutionary-design.html<br />HDW Class 212 CD stands in a long line of successful submarine developments, with the signature optimized HDW Class 212A as its operationally proven predecessor. Thanks to their unique shape, a-magnetic steel design and cutting-edge combat systems HDW Class 212 CD will represent the peak of stealth technology. With a size similar to the NL WALRUS Class submarine, it is ready for expeditionary missions.<br /><br />[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walrus-class_submarine<br />Submerged displacement 2650t, length 67.7m, beam 8.2m<br /><br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-78371911085633268742019-02-12T23:01:54.052+11:002019-02-12T23:01:54.052+11:00Hi Anonymous
Thanks very much for all your commen...Hi Anonymous<br /><br />Thanks very much for all your comments in this thread. I can see I've used your 2017 and 2018 comments in this thread for articles<br /><br />I'll turn your 12/2/19 6:30 PM comment, on the Type 212CD, into an article this week.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-39622143964650659652019-02-12T18:30:15.213+11:002019-02-12T18:30:15.213+11:00Hi Pete
According to the recent information [1-3]...Hi Pete<br /><br />According to the recent information [1-3], TKMS 212CD equips with LIBs, two MTUdiesels, newgeneration PMSM (SIEMENS Permasyn) and new generation fuel cell (FC, SIEMENS metal hydride) and its hull is made of non-magnetic steel proving this article of Submarine Matters is correct.<br /><br />Jedging from easeness of design, efficiency of production and common use of parts, 212CD is presumably longer version of 212A like SAAB A26 series (Plagic, Oceanic and Oceanic ER) [3] and has additional MTU diesel and crew sections. Hull diameter of 212CD is not changed (=6.8m), because diameter change will provide total review of submarine structure and parts. L (length)/D(diameter) for 212A is 8.23 (L=56m, D=6.8m) and maximum L/D for modern submarine is 10.5. If L/D for 212CD is 10.5, L is 71.5m. Considering length of MTU diesel and extension case of Soryu for CEA1000, displacement of 212CD may increase 20-30% (2200-2400ton) compare with 212A (1830ton).<br /><br />LIBs to be used is SAFT made lithium iron phosphate (LFP) which is stable at low temperature and optimal for 212CD in cold water. Exchange of LABs by LIBs in 212A seems to be difficult, because voltage of LIBs is significantly higher than LABs.<br /><br />In new generation fuel cell, metal hydride as hydrogen source is used and safer than hydrogen cylinder. Weak point of metal hydride is its heavt weight and increase in buoyancy is needed. TKMS and SENER are developing methal reforming FC as futher evolved version. Weak point of methal reforming FC is limited diving depth due to exhaust of carbondioxide. <br /><br /><br />Direct application of 212CD for Warlus replacement of Netherland is difficult, because requirement of diameter is 8.2m which is considerably bigger thant 212CD. If dimension (diameter) is not reviewed, TKMS may lose tender meaning TKMS sales. SAAB should offer LIBs, or Naval Group will win in this tender.<br /><br />[1]https://www.tu.no/artikler/norges-nye-ubater-kan-fa-nyutviklede-litiumion-batterier-fra-thyssenkrupp/449338<br />“Norway's new submarines can receive newly developed lithium ion batteries from ThyssenKrupp”<br /><br />[2]https://www.tu.no/artikler/norges-nye-ubat-kan-bli-forst-med-litiumionbatterier-eller-sist-med-blybatterier/427238<br />Norway's new submarine can be first with lithium-ion batteries - or last with lead-acid batteries<br /><br />[3]https://www.defence24.com/pdf/?article=orka--the-german-way-will-the-polish-navy-submarines-be-built-in-szczecin <br />“ORKA – THE GERMAN WAY: WILL THE POLISH NAVY SUBMARINES BE BUILT IN SZCZECIN?” page5<br />There is a scarcity of information available on the 212CD submarines. Even the dimensions remain confidential. The vessel is going to be derived from the 212A submarines. As the representatives of the shipyard admit, the new vessel will be fitted with two MTU diesels, while the older ones use a single set as such. The project was being developed as a successor to the older 212A type, hence its original 212NG designation, later changed into 212CD, following the Norwegian decision to work together with the German manufacturer.<br /><br />[4] https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-surface-ships/submarines/submarines/<br /><br />[5] http://www.revistanoticias.sener/en/news/aip-system-for-submarines/50/<br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-47848196222794376912018-01-03T23:20:17.937+11:002018-01-03T23:20:17.937+11:00Hi Pete
Happy New Year!
Combined turbocharger an...Hi Pete<br /><br />Happy New Year!<br /><br />Combined turbocharger and supercharger system, which is superior to single turbocharger or supercharger system and is patent of MAN, is adoped for 12PA4V200SMDS, while twin turbochargers system is adopted for MTU 12V4000U83 [1,2]. <br /><br />Common Rail (CR) system [3], which is latest fuel injection system for diesel engine and prodives optimal condition of combustion, is adopted MTU and reduction of vibration, is adopted for 12V4000U83, but, its adoption for PAV200SMDS is not clear. Issues of CR system are fuel lubrication, fouling deposit by fuel degradation and high sensibility of bad influence [4].<br /><br />Diesel fuel for submarine contains trace amount of sea water which does not seem to affect on CR at ambient temperature. But it may provide issues as corrosion or erosion or combination of both at high pressure and temperatue, because reaction rate between sea water and metal will significantly increase at high temperature and high pressure cause mechanical stress on metal or combination of erosion and corrosion. Presumably, manufacturer of CR conduct degradation test by using real/simulated fuel including trace sea water to access durability of CR, but, durability of CR under the real operlation is not estabilished yet.<br /><br /><br />[1] http://www.marine.man.eu/docs/default-source/shopwaredocuments/pa4-sm-smdsfba3ca1740b144429518d4e002fd7d6f.pdf?sfvrsn=3 (MAN 12 PA4 V 200 SMDS)<br /><br />[2] http://www.tognum.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/tognum/press/2011/MTU_Submarine_Charging_Unit_12V_4000.pdf (MTU 12V4000U83)<br /><br />[3]http://www.marine.man.eu/docs/default-source/shopwaredocuments/common-rail6d4a00a89677406b92e2a18b9edb80a2.pdf?sfvrsn=3 (Common rail marine diesel for MAN Diesel and turbo)<br /><br />[4] https://costeffective.com.au/2017/03/05/solving-common-rail-diesel-problems/<br /> (Solving Common Rail Diesel Problems)<br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-63840855550949275032017-12-21T01:03:00.658+11:002017-12-21T01:03:00.658+11:00
Hi Pete
Both MAN 12PA4 V 200 SMDS [1] and MTU 12...<br />Hi Pete<br /><br />Both MAN 12PA4 V 200 SMDS [1] and MTU 12V4000U83 [2] show same performance, but piston speed of MAN (9.1m/s) is lower than that of MTU (11.4m/s). Lower piston speed is favorable to reduce vibration. <br /><br />1000kW-class generator can satisfy performance of small AIP submarine for short period (few weeks) patrol, and 212A or CD is invincible convensional submarine in the Baltic Sea if the budget is sufficient.<br /><br />For large submarine, more powerful generator such as 2000kW-class is desirable to reduce number of generators, i.e., length of submarine. For example, four KAWASAKI 12V/25/25SBs with output of 6800kW are nearly equivalent to six 12PA4200SMDSs or six 12V4000U83s.<br /><br /><br />[1] MAN 12 PA4 V 200 SMDS: Bore 200 mm, Stroke 210 mm, Mechanical output 1330kW at 1300 rpm (=Piston speed 9.1m/s) , Generator output 1064kW<br />(http://www.marine.man.eu/docs/default-source/shopwaredocuments/pa4-sm-smdsfba3ca1740b144429518d4e002fd7d6f.pdf?sfvrsn=3)<br /><br />[2] MTU 12V4000U83: Bore 170 mm, Stroke 190 mm, Mechanical output 1300kW at 1800 rpm (=Piston speed 11.4m/s), Generator output 1040kW<br />(http://www.tognum.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/tognum/press/2011/MTU_Submarine_Charging_Unit_12V_4000.pdf)<br /><br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-59422639600032660282017-12-20T17:31:02.074+11:002017-12-20T17:31:02.074+11:00Hi Pete
Recently, Penske Power Systems unvealed M...Hi Pete<br /><br />Recently, Penske Power Systems unvealed MTU 12V4000U83 submarine engine which may be used for Collins and Shortfin submarines. This engine is possible alternative for MTU 16V396SE83. According to Penske Power Systems, maximum power of 12V4000U83 is 1500kW [1]. <br /><br />I hope that Canberra Connection does not adversely affect on purchasing from Penske Power Systems. <br /><br />[1]http://penske.com.au/2017/09/27/penske-power-systems-reveal-mtus-next-generation-submarine-charging-engine-pacific-2017/ <br />Notice: diesel generator consists of diesel engine and alternator, and diesel generator is not presented in this picture. Output of generator is engine output x power facor (eg, 1500kW x 0.8 = 1200kW).<br /><br />RegardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-84839045391101040292017-12-20T15:54:42.732+11:002017-12-20T15:54:42.732+11:00Hi Pete
Former comment on generator of 212CD is r...Hi Pete<br /><br />Former comment on generator of 212CD is reviewed based on the opinion of German Navy that miniaturization is a key concept of German submarine. 212CD will equip with one diesel generator, not two, and it may be LIBs-oriented MTU 12V 4000 instead of current MTU 16V396 [1]. I also expect adoption of methanol reforming fuel cell. Common design and procurement scheme of 212CD will provide reduction in its life long cost.<br /><br />[1] http://www.tognum.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/tognum/press/2011/MTU_Submarine_Charging_Unit_12V_4000.pdf<br />“A submarine charging unit with a 12V 4000 submarine engine does have smaller dimensions compared to a 16V 396 SE design. However, the mechanical power is noticeably increased to 1,300 kilowatts (kW) at 1,800 rpm.”<br />“Another major design objective was the reduction of the specific fuel consumption in combination with greater operating flexibilities for different scenarios.”<br />“The new engine footfor Series 4000 includes an integrated shock limiter. Its compact and easy to install design results in very low effects of the foot’s dynamic behavior on the structure-borne noise signature of the engine.”<br /><br />RegardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-66763801702726702612017-12-20T15:53:35.065+11:002017-12-20T15:53:35.065+11:00Hi Pete
Norway and Germany are going to product n...Hi Pete<br /><br />Norway and Germany are going to product new submarine 212 CD (Common Design) based on 212A. <br /><br />“According to TKMS, the class 212CD will combine the low signatures of the class 212A with extended range, speed and endurance to allow worldwide operations.” [1] <br /><br />“…..it is planned that six identical submarines of the new class 212 CD will be procured. Four receive the Norwegians, two the Germans. The 1st submarine squadron currently has six Class 212A boats. Through the cooperation with the Norwegians, the fleet can be increased to eight submarines. The first new addition is scheduled for 2027.” [2]<br /><br />Increase in speed may be achieved by reduction of hydrodynamic resistance and increase in propulsion power. As 212CD is based on 212A in which reduction of hydrodynamic resistanc has already achieved, propulsion power will increase.<br /><br />Possible measures are adoption of high power propulsion motor and LIBs. As 212A equips with Siemens Permasyn Motor of 2MW, adoption of more powerfull Premasyn Motor (such as the one of 4MW for 214 subs) may be considered. Because output of fuel cell is low, Lithium Iron Phosphate LIBs may be adopted to supply high power. <br /><br />One diesel generator system for 212A provides miniaturization of submarine in the Baltic Sea but has issues of low power and failure of diesel for real world wide use. Two diesel generator sytem is better to address these issues. Maintance of diesel is only conducted in dock but also in operation such as snorkeling, maintainability is important. One MUT does not seem to generate enough electricity for LIBs. Trade off of one and two generators system is as follows:<br /><br />Current beam (6.8m)/ one generator [low power]<br />Current beam (6.8m)/ parallel two generators [bad maintainability]<br />Current beam (6.8m)/ tandem two generators [extended length]<br />Wider beam/ parallel two generators [redesign]<br /><br />[1] https://navaltoday.com/2017/11/01/tkms-kongsberg-jv-kta-naval-systems-will-be-delivering-new-type-212-cd-submarine-combat-systems/<br /><br />[2]http://www.kn-online.de/News/Nachrichten-aus-Eckernfoerde/Deutsche-und-norwegische-Marine-beschliessen-U-Boot-Zusammenarbeit<br /><br />RegardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com