tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post173733746527009602..comments2024-03-29T18:47:52.197+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Latest Table of Developers of LIBs and LABs for Submarine - Version 4Pete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-30164441684889977862017-07-08T15:08:17.820+10:002017-07-08T15:08:17.820+10:00Hi Anonymous [at 8/7/17 3:34 AM]
Covering rubber/...Hi Anonymous [at 8/7/17 3:34 AM]<br /><br />Covering rubber/plastic anechoic tiles with a "low friction [fluorine resin (plastic?) sheet" seems a good idea. <br /><br />The tiles might cause enough friction to slow the sub down or lead to more diesel or battery power being used a cruising speed.<br /><br />Also the "low friction [fluorine resin (plastic?) sheet" might help stop the tiles from falling off.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-89196165480982357192017-07-08T14:59:21.178+10:002017-07-08T14:59:21.178+10:00Hi MHalblaub
Yes I agree its possible "next ...Hi MHalblaub<br /><br />Yes I agree its possible "next generation Type 212 (or what ever it will be called) will likely have to lithium batteries and methanol reformer together". This may coincide with my estimate in the article that TKMS may start using LIBs in the late 2020s.<br /><br />Amount of content is a difficult area given Rolls Royce, MTU and Man Diesel ([1] "7,700 staff, primarily in Germany, Denmark, France, the Czech Republic, India and China") all overlap in some ways.<br /><br />[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAN_Diesel<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-14794930588173686592017-07-08T14:50:46.122+10:002017-07-08T14:50:46.122+10:00Hi Anonymous [at 7/7/17 12:14 AM]
I think it unl...Hi Anonymous [at 7/7/17 12:14 AM] <br /><br />I think it unlikely that France's Naval Group (formerly DCNS) would or could use a combination of MESMA and fuel cell (FC). Information in Submarine Matters' February 28, 2017 article http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/german-french-spanish-reformer-fuel.html indicates: <br /><br />"Public domain information shows DCNS [now called Naval Group] have abandoned their MESMA AIP solution on the Pakistani Agosta 90s [and all other submarine classes] and will use a diesel reformer/FC solution on the Shortfin Barracuda. [No supporting detail seen to date.]<br /><br />Further on the French FC, it appears as though two options are on the table; a PEM or Solid Oxide FC (‘SOFC’) type. If a SOFC is chosen, noting they offer good energy conversion efficiency, long life and operating cost advantages, other drawbacks need to be addressed. Most of these drawbacks relate to the high 600 to 1000°C operating temperature which brings hot exhaust issues and brittleness related shock resistance problems.<br /><br />Novelty, complexity and uncertainty put this solution’s inclusion in the French package as high risk. Even if the technical challenges of the diesel reformer and FC are solved, the enemy of the DCNS development will be schedule. DCNS are believed to have started their reformer/FC work back around 2006/7 and announced it as a future solution in 2008 as part of their SMX 24 concept design. [1] It is instructive that the Germans have developed and perfected their reformer/FC solution over four decades. It is also worthy of note that the Spanish have had issues with their S-80 submarine ethanol reformer/FC solution and have announced that the first S-80 will now be fitted-for-but-not-with AIP.[2]"<br /><br />Saft may indeed build the LABs which may be supplied through Australia's PMB for the Shortfins.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-26605682557573022042017-07-08T14:34:46.689+10:002017-07-08T14:34:46.689+10:00Hi Chuck McGutsup
PMB probably buys LABs produced...Hi Chuck McGutsup<br /><br />PMB probably buys LABs produced overseas. Then PMB would assemble the batteries specifically of the right size and output for Collins subs.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-14711408236835538492017-07-08T03:34:36.274+10:002017-07-08T03:34:36.274+10:00
Besides methanol fuel cell, 212A shows unique suf...<br />Besides methanol fuel cell, 212A shows unique suface modification of hull as shown in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV5VDyBfIbA (6:17/7:12). I appreciate German technology.<br /><br />The surface of submarine is sometimes covered by numerous thick rubber tiles for sound refection or absorption to eliminate acoustic finger print. Further surface modification may be conducetd to reduce drag of submarine. In this case, rubber tiles are covered by low friction sheet with large suface area. Laminated sheet consisted of upper low fiction layer (such as fluorine resin) and lower adhesive layer may be adopted. If the surface is coverd by sheet, we can find large area pattern on the suface instead of small area pattern by rubber tiles.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-46789574353488471482017-07-07T09:25:44.683+10:002017-07-07T09:25:44.683+10:00Dear Pete,
I'm not convinced. New batteries a...Dear Pete,<br /><br />I'm not convinced. New batteries alone will not make it.<br />http://www.dmkn.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/2015-09-29-DWT_4_offen.pdf<br />On page 17 you can see methanol reformer and Lithium-Iron-batteries side by side. <br /><br />The next generation Type 212 (or what ever it will be called) will likely have to lithium batteries and methanol reformer together. Just from the look of the reformer installation I would say this thing is ready for use.<br /><br />We will see how much German content the French submarine for Australia will have.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-36080834238052931822017-07-07T00:14:57.850+10:002017-07-07T00:14:57.850+10:00Hi Pete
Shortfin is likely to adopt LIBs by SAFT ...Hi Pete<br /><br />Shortfin is likely to adopt LIBs by SAFT [1]. Possible power systems for future German, French/Australia and Japanese convensional submarines are as follows.<br /><br />Germany (post TYPE-212A): Methanol reforming + LIBs (Lithium Iron Phosphate =LFP by Atlas Electronik)<br /><br />France/Australia (Shortfin): MESMA FC + LIBs (Lithium Cobalt Oxide = LCO by SAFT)<br /><br />Japan (Soryu MKII, post Soryu): LIBs (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Alminium Oxide = NCA by GS Yuasa)<br /><br /><br />In my opinion, submerging period of the submarines are as follows.<br /><br />At low speed: post TYPE-212A >= Shortfin> Soryu MKII/post Soryu<br /><br />At maximum silent speed: Soryu MKII/post Soryu > Shortfin > post TYPE-212A <br /><br />[1] http://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/saft-gagne-plus-de-4-porte-par-le-contrat-australien-de-dcns-thales-1122054<br />“SAFT wins more than 4% under the DCNS (Thales) contract in Australia.” Published on 26/04/2016 at 17h17<br /><br />(AOF)- Saft jumped 4.09% to 26.46 euros, driven by the announcement of DCNS that has just been selected by the Australian Ministry of Defense to renew its fleet of submarines (SEA program 1000). The contract amount is € 34 billion. Thales, which is the largest shareholder (35%) of DCNS, is present in Australia with its subsidiary Thales Australia. Saft, which has already partnered with the Thales Group and DCNS, is likely to be part of the crew loop.<br /><br />Regards<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-59179917218563434572017-07-06T08:53:24.345+10:002017-07-06T08:53:24.345+10:00YOu seem to have missed the LAB maker of most inte...YOu seem to have missed the LAB maker of most interest to Australia - PMBChuck McGutsupnoreply@blogger.com