In response to Anonymous’ June 19, 2022, 9:23:00 AM comment.
Good that we agree on using Orca evolving to 80+ tonne unmanned "submarines".
I'm a bit confused over your:
"If the start of a nuclear sub build is as faraway as claimed we should hold proper tenders for it. If it is soon we should focus on that and buy new diesel subs from Germany or Japan to replace Collins in the interim if there is any capability gap. Build Orcas here in the mean time. There seems little point re-establishing an SSK manufacturing capability in Australia for a stop-gap solution."
1. I don't think the US SSN building industry would expose itself to an Australian tender. I think it unlikely it would hand over the vast amount of sensitive Virginia/SSN(X) technical detail required by Australian tender procedures. Also GD-EB and HII are flat out building Virginia SSNs and Columbia SSBNs for their own navy.
2. Which leaves the UK SSN(R) Astute successor as the no need to compete, monopoly SSN supplier for Australia.
3. The group of ex-RAN officers at https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/19/new-collins-based-submarine-best-fit-while-waiting-for-aukus-defence-experts-say are over optimistic (launched by "2032") about how quickly Sweden could design-build "Son of Collins".
Its panning out Sweden will have taken 14 years to build A26-Blekinge-class subs for its own navy, ie. 2014-2028. Also Sweden's thin submarine designer-builder-manager workforce will be building A26s for 6 years 2022-28. This 6 year hiatus would hinder SAAB's ability to design-build "Son of Collins" in Adelaide.
4. So, a more accurate timeline is the standard 15 years to design-launch "Son of Collins". Then 3 more years to Commission/problem solve that first submarine. The first Son of Collins being operational by 2040, is more accurate. 18 years also applies to the German Type 216 and the latest Japanese sub, which is the Taigei. The main development hurdles for the 216 and Taigei will be Australia's familiar larger sub requirement for extended range-endurance (conquering the total 7,000km to-from transit to operations), at higher speed, with larger crew. This has been required for all new Australian submarines conceived since the Collins concept in the 1970s.
Australian submarine's' transit reality means we need submarines at least 1,000 tonnes heavier than standard for the German Type 214/218 subs used by Singapore. Hence we would need never operated large TKMS 216 concept subs.
An alternative is a sub 1,000 tonnes heavier than Japan's shorter range Taigeis. This is noting after Australia rejected Abbott-Abe's handshake promised Soryu in 2016 Japan would be very hesitant exposing itself again to another face-losing Australian rejection.
5. I think the LOTE will end up as A$2 Billion per Collins life of type extension eg. MTU diesels are needed. But this process can deliver the first "LOTED" Collins in 2028 with the remaining 5 every 2 years thereafter. So I think the LOTE is the best Interim manned submarine solution.
6. Orcas will probably
grow in size, particularly those that are nuclear propelled. Cutting out an SSN's necessary 8,000
tonnage to support a human crew will probably always mean Orcas will only
displace one third of an SSN. Orcas human "crew" will always be remote,
back in Australia. Orcas' remote "commanders" (as with weaponised Reaper UAVs right now) will be the people who give permission for Orcas to fire their
torpedoes and cruise missiles at targets. As established here even manned submarines report back to base to seek permission to hit a target. Disposable Orcas can be even more talkative and will be managed with required Australia-based digital codeword certifications )to minimise enemy tampering) to hit a specific target.
7. As Orcas evolve, they may be able to do 90% of what a manned submarine can do. About the remaining 10% - Orcas cannot deliver Special Forces/Divers. An Orca network option a third the cost of an SSN option might present a reasonable permanent capability for Australia.
8. We won't need to train or risk a 2,400 member submariner corps (noting two 100+ member "Blue" and "Gold" crews per SSN and on-shore training and command teams) required for an SSN fleet.
9. This is recalling Orcas will be part of a network already used by Australia. This network overlaps many manned submarine functions. It includes:
- AUKUS/QUAD fixed undersea sensors intensively laid and criss-crossing the Pacific and Indian oceans,
- increasingly sensitive reconnaissance radar, optical and electronic interception satellites doing much of the intelligence collection role once done by satellites
- missile/light torpedo carrying anti-sub, anti-shipping aircraft/helicopters and already ship based medium UAVs and perhaps future land launched large UAVs,
- missile/light torpedo carrying warships, and
- Australia's steadily evolving land based, long range, AUKUS hypersonic missile capability, and
- Foreign conventional (Singapore and Japan) and nuclear propelled (US, UK) submarines can hit targets detected by Orcas.
Also the US will blaze the technical and doctrinal Orca trail. Australian Orcas will interoperate with US Orcas.
10. As Orcas are unmanned some versions would be expendable in time of war. Orcas themselves could carry 10 tonne conventional warheads.
11. If nuclear propelled Orcas, in the context of broader Australian-Foreign weapon-sensor networks, are developed to do all this, Australian SSNs will not be necessary.
Pete
ReplyDeleteI was thinking we should hold more “normal” tender processes wherever possible, including for subs. Whenever we have departed from normal tender processes e.g. Sea 1000, itn usually ends in grief. Also, there is no reason we save any time not doing formal tenders, quite the opposite. Tenders can be written to protect bidder IP. This could be done for SSNs or SSKs too.
So if we are going to get SSNs, we should tender it. Even without USA a tender between UK and fFrance might still be intersting.
Similarly if we are going to get an interim sub, we should tender that too. Many other countries have run sub tenders, notably India and Korea.
Hi Anonymous [at Jun 19, 2022, 5:31:00 PM]
ReplyDeleteProblems with a Australian tender for conventional interim subs (SSKs) and SSNs include:
each of them causing a delay of about 4 years until the winners can be chosen. This will work against Australia:
- an SSK tender may mean just one "interim" SSK may only be operational in 2040. Then the rest of the interim every 12-18 months after that.
- this SSK tender would mean extending the LOTE process to a second LOTE from the mid 2030s.
- were AUKUS SSNs ever envisaged as a tenderable alliance disruptor? This would weaken AUKUS feeling.
- tenders could be distorted processes with France (once bitten) unlikely to enter its SSN and of course not its SSK. Also Japan, once bitten, might be hesitant to enter its SSK.
- what place would the Orca UUVs have in all this? I think conventionally propelled Orcas could fill the interim submarine role and nuclear propelled Orcas the SSN role.
I'd be interested in details of a South Korea tender you mention. India's Project-75I tender has been an abject failure.
Regards Pete
I agree with Pete as to the impossibility of getting the Swedes involved and work ab initio the SSK thingy all over....a mess i think no one wants.
ReplyDeleteBy now, I think it can be safely assumed that 'Oceanic' SSKs as proposed a decade ago by SAAB Kockums are out of the question for reasons hashed over at SMI many times in the past.
Orcas, Pelagic SSKs and Oceanic SSNs all have their roles in a naval conflict.
India is leasing SSNs and planning building its own as it was realized way back in 1985 that CBGs cannot be protected by slow moving and noisy SSKs. (Hence Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi's admittedly far sighted decision to lease the K-43 Charlie class by 1987)
Chinese CBGs led by their Type-003 carriers and Type-95 SSNs are all but guaranteed to be extremely capable. Even in peace time, Australia and the Quad will need to have their Orcas, SSKs and SSNs all in place to ensure they can handle the constant probing from the PLAN. There is no simple solution here.
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteTenders are indeed a slow process and could be distorted if the requirements do not find competitive offers (due to structure or to the expectations.)
Tenders have immense advantages however:
It is a politically robust as it is more difficult to politize the outcome.It is not obscure and suspect "à priori " by political opponents
Most important it will force the Australian Navy and Gov to define clearly in written and open form,what is their defense policy, what functionalities they want, how , when and for which budget
This how democratic countries operate US, UK, Fr,Ger, India ect..Not very expedient ..but as we were told years ago, all the other alternatives are....
Hi Ghalib
ReplyDeleteSweden's Saab will be useful, with its Gotland-class uprade experience, in doing part of the Collins' LOTE. But yes, no so-called "Son of Collins", "Collins 2" or any other "interim sub" are non-starters as any manned SSK would need to be tailor-made, very large which would now not be operational until 2040. This being just a few years before the first SSN is supposed to be ready.
Meanwhile steadily more able Orcas for Australia from the late 2020s may be the technology "disruptor" that does away with the:
- need for manned SSKs after the LOTE impact ends with last Collins in 2043
and
- nuclear propelled, weaponised (torpedo and ASM) Orcas, may even do away with the need for Australian SSNs.
Thanks for the extra ideas on China's surprise Type 003 carrier "launch" + Type 095s to protect them. I'm doing an article on these developments as we "speak".
Cheers Pete
Pete
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that the ROK navy always tenders almost everything competitively including sub contracts. Even where domestic construction is intended, they still get competitive bids, since they have both Hyundai and Daewoo shipyards to bid for it. For example:
https://www.tendersontime.com/tenders-details/submarine-diesel-surveillance-and-culinary-generator-pcb-maintenance-3692209/
I agree the current Indian tender has failed, but IMO that was because they over-specified, requiring an AIP boat rather than requiring a level of acoustic performance. This limited the tendering options too narrowly. The fact so many bidders dropped out including TKM who can supply AIP suggests other unknown problems.
As Anonymous 3.46pm said, tenders require a lot of work specifying what you want, but then have many advantages. Good bidders prefer them too, because they know the choice will be less subjective. I have worked on many large engineering project tenders. Tender documents spanning several volumes an inch thick are not unknown for complex projects. Documenting tender specifications is typically a six month task in my experience.
Pete
ReplyDeleteA final comment on this thread re future capability- future crew training is just as important as constructing the boats so this is good news. A bill to permit RAN engineering officers to be trained at the USN naval nuclear propulsion school is going through US Congress with bipartisan support.
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/06/16/new-bill-would-establish-aukus-submarine-training-program/
It would be great to get this signed off before the 2024 US election in case Trump returns.
I was referring to the pointlessness of SAAB beyond the Collins LOTE. Even After LOTE, I don't think the Collins can venture much beyond the EEZ of Ozzie land.
ReplyDeleteAI enhanced UUVs incl. Orcas are almost sure to play a bigger role in future naval warfare. I agree an Orca bearing ADCAPs and Tomahawks could be a formidable tool. However, me also thinks manned SSKs still have a big role to play in battles for the foreseeable future.
Unfortunately, it is now very very clear that china will not back down. Conflict is a misfortune that is now increasingly becoming a near certainty. They might even try to make red sea onwards till the marianas as 'mare nostrum' ala imperial rome.
a Nuclear powered Type-004 carrier is at an advanced design/possible steel cutting stage. With the type-004, the PLAN should have 5 possibly 6 carriers operating by 2030 with more under construction.
https://twitter.com/rupprechtdeino/status/1292454107391942658
I sincerely hope this incorrigible human itch for a major global conflict every 80-100 years does not materialize this time. With climate change already marching on, a major conflict even without nukes can start the end of civilization as we know it. These supremacist bunglers at Zhongnanhai are admirably mimicking their Ming and Qing era predecessors as far as imperial ambitions go.
Hi Pete,
ReplyDeleteThere is also the question if the Saab Damen ongoing offer for the Walrus replacement can be used to speed up a potential "Son of Collins".
And ASC is also taking part in the A26, Blekinge class, design.
/Kjell
Hi Ghalib Kabir [at Jun 20, 2022, 8:54:00 PM]
ReplyDeleteYes even the 6 "LOTED" (ie. upgraded) Collins by 2035 won't be able to run their diesels in much of their past operational area (eg. the South China Sea (SCS))
before quickly coming to the notice of Chinese undersea acoustic sensors being laid in the SCS as we write.
Orcas will be quieter and if destroyed by China, in wartime, it won't be as tragic as manned Australian subs.
Getting Orca's efficiency up to standard in "reporting" back to base for torpedo/missile targetting is a major technical hurdle. Only US insiders know how much its been resolved.
Yes three Chinese Type 003 carriers might be major assets in blockading the eastern approaches to Taiwan.
Ten Nuclear powered Type-004 carriers (in about 2038) will help give China supremacy wherever they are concentrated in the Indo-Pacific.
One potential comfort is No Nuclear Weapon Armed Country has ever been invaded. India has those weapons and Australia (like Israel now) should be seriously planning such a capability.
In future US Presidents who are even more erratic and isolationist than Trump may be unreliable for Australia's defence.
Regards Pete