Based on what I've read so far, likely, but cannot be proven. The Japanese Navy has formalized its submarine testing:
- from testing new technologies on several operational Oyashio and Soryu submarines.
- to a formal testing program called 29SS (with 29SS being a Japanese Ministry of Finance to
Ministry of Defense research funding designation, rather than an actual operational submarine).
The 29SS Program apparently begun in 2017 (see SORYU TABLE below). 29SS apparently involves testing of such new technologies as:
- new, higher sea state (storm) snorkel system http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/01/japanese-
soryu-higher-power-snorkel.html
- new pumpjet? propulsor
- new 12V25/31S diesels
- new diesel-to-LIB and LIB-to-propeller/propulsor transmissions.
- further LIB testing (eg. new LIB types/formulas)
- more broadly an updated combat system which would include:
: new "G-RX6" torpedoes, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_torpedo which contains
sentence "A succeeding design is in development under the development name of "G-RX6" still
using Mark 48 torpedo technology.
: new mines and decoys,
: possible Japanese successor to the Harpoon ASM
: consideration of Tomahawk or more advanced Land Attack Missiles
: such sensors as hull and towed sonars, radars, other submarine motion detectors
: optronic (non-hull piercing) masts,
: new central processing computers.
Even though 29SS does not mean a new submarine, the technologies above could be tested on existing "training" submarines. "Training" can be a cover for "testbed" submarine.
Japan's 2 known training submarines are the 2 earliest Oyashios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyashio-class_submarine#Boats namely:
- SS-590. Converted to training submarine (TSS-3608) on 6 March 2015, and
- SS-591. Converted to training submarine (TSS-3609) on 27 February 2017.
So TSS-3608 and/or TSS-3609 could be the full scale testbeds for 29SS Submarine Research Program. Meanwhile there is a great deal of on-shore testing of 29SS technologies, eg. electronics, weapons and test pools (for miniature scale models to test the hydrodynamics of slightly altered hull shapes).
A new sail/fin, less exaggerated than the German Type 212A's, may eventially be adopted. A much lower, muc more blended sail/fin than the Soryu's is unlikely because Japanese submarines still need to be tall/perpendicular enough to operate, surfaced, without being swamped, in the higher sea states of the open Western Pacific Ocean.
As is Japan's usual practice the new technologies will be steadily incorporated into individual submarines on an iterative, continuous-build basis, rather than a US/European style batch basis.
Looking at the SORYU TABLE below, 30SS may be the first new-build submarine to begin incorporating 29SS Program features (eg. 2 x 12V25/31S diesels). Some Oyashios and Soryu's may be retrofitted - especially with updated combat system electronics and perhaps the G-RX6 torpedo.
Pete
- from testing new technologies on several operational Oyashio and Soryu submarines.
- to a formal testing program called 29SS (with 29SS being a Japanese Ministry of Finance to
Ministry of Defense research funding designation, rather than an actual operational submarine).
The 29SS Program apparently begun in 2017 (see SORYU TABLE below). 29SS apparently involves testing of such new technologies as:
- new, higher sea state (storm) snorkel system http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/01/japanese-
soryu-higher-power-snorkel.html
- new pumpjet? propulsor
- new 12V25/31S diesels
- new diesel-to-LIB and LIB-to-propeller/propulsor transmissions.
- further LIB testing (eg. new LIB types/formulas)
- more broadly an updated combat system which would include:
: new "G-RX6" torpedoes, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_torpedo which contains
sentence "A succeeding design is in development under the development name of "G-RX6" still
using Mark 48 torpedo technology.
: new mines and decoys,
: possible Japanese successor to the Harpoon ASM
: consideration of Tomahawk or more advanced Land Attack Missiles
: such sensors as hull and towed sonars, radars, other submarine motion detectors
: optronic (non-hull piercing) masts,
: new central processing computers.
Even though 29SS does not mean a new submarine, the technologies above could be tested on existing "training" submarines. "Training" can be a cover for "testbed" submarine.
Japan's 2 known training submarines are the 2 earliest Oyashios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyashio-class_submarine#Boats namely:
- SS-590. Converted to training submarine (TSS-3608) on 6 March 2015, and
- SS-591. Converted to training submarine (TSS-3609) on 27 February 2017.
So TSS-3608 and/or TSS-3609 could be the full scale testbeds for 29SS Submarine Research Program. Meanwhile there is a great deal of on-shore testing of 29SS technologies, eg. electronics, weapons and test pools (for miniature scale models to test the hydrodynamics of slightly altered hull shapes).
A new sail/fin, less exaggerated than the German Type 212A's, may eventially be adopted. A much lower, muc more blended sail/fin than the Soryu's is unlikely because Japanese submarines still need to be tall/perpendicular enough to operate, surfaced, without being swamped, in the higher sea states of the open Western Pacific Ocean.
As is Japan's usual practice the new technologies will be steadily incorporated into individual submarines on an iterative, continuous-build basis, rather than a US/European style batch basis.
Looking at the SORYU TABLE below, 30SS may be the first new-build submarine to begin incorporating 29SS Program features (eg. 2 x 12V25/31S diesels). Some Oyashios and Soryu's may be retrofitted - especially with updated combat system electronics and perhaps the G-RX6 torpedo.
SORYU TABLE. as at March 13, 2020
SS
No.
Diesel Type
Motor
|
Build No
Name
|
Pennant
No.
|
MoF approved amount ¥
Billions FY
|
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
-ched
|
Commi
ssioned
|
Built
By
|
5SS Oyashio
|
8105 Oyashio
(mythical
|
SS-590/ TS3608
|
¥52.2B FY1993
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
|
6SS-15SS
Oyashios
10 subs
SMC-7?
|
8106
-8115
various
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
FY1994-FY2003
|
LABs only
|
15SS Feb
2004
|
15SS
Nov
2006
|
15SS
Mar 2008
|
MHI
&
KHI
|
16SS
Dragon
class Mk I
|
8116
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004 all Soryus with
Kawasaki
SMC-8 motor
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
2009
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
Unryū
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
2010
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
Hakuryū
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
2011
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
Kenryū
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
2012
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
Zuiryū
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
2013
|
MHI
|
21SS Concept
|
No 21SS built
But was a concept research project on LIBs. 1st LIBs sub launched is 27SS |
research
in
2010 |
research
|
research
| ||||
22SS
|
8121
Kokuryū
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
2015
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
Jinryu
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
7 Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
Sekiryū
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
KHI
| |||
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
22 Oct 2013
|
12 Oct 2016
|
MHI
| |
26SS
|
8125
|
SS-510
|
LABs + AIP
|
2014
|
6 Nov 2017
|
KHI
| ||
27SS SoryuMk II due to 1st with LIBs
|
8126
|
SS-511
|
LIBs only
(NCA type)
|
2015
|
4 Oct
2018
|
MHI
| ||
28SS Soryu
Mk II
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
"2,900t" surfaced |
LIBs only
|
Jan 2017
|
Mar 2021?
|
KHI
| |
|
29SS may be the 1st of a New class
|
¥76B FY2017 New features research may include: a further blended fin for noise reduction-better water flow, new propulsor, new diesels, new snorkel system. G-RX6 torpedoes replacing the Type 89s? May be using
TSS-3608 and TSS-3609 as testbeds. |
research
in
2017pro-gram began |
research
|
research
|
MHI
assisted
by
KHI
& JMoD
| |||
30SS New Class?
|
8028?
|
SS-513
|
¥71.5B FY2018
|
LIBs only
|
2018?
|
2020?
|
2022?
|
MHI?
|
31SS New Class ?
|
8029?
|
SS-514
|
¥B?FY2019
|
LIBs only
|
2019?
|
2021?
|
2023?
|
KHI?
|
32SS New Class ?
|
8030?
|
SS-515
|
¥B?Y2020
|
LIBs only
|
2020?
|
2022?
|
2024?
|
MHI?
|
33SS New Class ?
|
8031?
|
SS-516
|
¥B? FY2021
|
LIBs only
|
2021?
|
2023?
|
2025?
|
KHI?
|
34SS New Class ?
|
8032?
|
SS-517
|
¥B? FY2022
|
LIBs only
|
2022?
|
2024?
|
2026?
|
MHI?
|
35SS New Class ?
|
8033?
|
SS-518
|
¥B? FY2023
|
LIBs only
|
2023?
|
2025?
|
2027?
|
KHI?
|
36SS New Class ?
|
8034?
|
SS-519
|
¥B? FY2024
|
LIBs only
|
2024?
|
2026?
|
2028?
|
MHI?
|
37SS New Class ?
|
8035?
|
SS-520
|
¥B? FY2025
|
LIBs only
|
2025?
|
2027?
|
2029?
|
KHI?
|
38SS New Class ?
|
8036?
|
SS-521
|
¥B? FY2026
|
LIBs only
|
2026?
|
2028?
|
2030?
|
MHI?
|
Key to Table: Table information exclusively provided to Submarine Matters. LABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air independent propulsion, LIBs = Lithium-ion Batteries. ¥***B = Billion Yen. MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, KHI = Kawasaki Shipbuilding Corporation of Kawasaki Heavy Industries.
---
Hi Pete,
ReplyDeleteAttack-Class Submarine Main Storage Batteries Contract Awarded
"Contracts for the design of the Main Storage Batteries Stages 1 and 2 for the Attack Class submarines have been awarded, another major milestone for the program.
PMB Defence, based in Adelaide and Sunlight, based in Greece have been contracted to provide design, prototyping and qualification activities for the Main Storage Batteries. Both organisations will provide Naval Group with the data necessary to select one as the preferred MSB design for the Attack Class program in 2022."
/Kjell
Possible use of pumpjet propulsion is not unexpected. Everyone thought that this was only an option on a SSN. Attack class changes all that. Naval Group is one of the worlds major (let’s face it there is not many anyway) submarine designers/builders & also happens to build both SSN & SSK. Their insistence that it is possible would have not gone unnoticed.
ReplyDeleteAs to Japanese Harpoon replacement on submarines. Are you sure it is a Japanese design? Japan is known to be looking at JSM for it’s F35 fighters. Konsberg are also considering a sub launched JSM version (along with a mk41 vls version). JSM is all about stealth. Not only is it low observable, both it’s seekers are passive. What better to be firing rom a SSK?
Hi Pete,
ReplyDeleteI assume that you have seen Australia's Future Submarines - Time for Plan B? if not you have until 1:30pm on 10 Apr 2020 to see it.
"SA Senator Rex Patrick, ANU Emeritus Professor of Strategic Studies Hugh White and ASPI Executive Director Peter Jennings speak at the Press Club on the topic Australia's Future Submarines - Time for Plan B?"
/Kjell
Thanks /Kjell
ReplyDeleteI looked for the National Press Club video "SA Senator Rex Patrick, ANU Emeritus Professor of Strategic Studies Hugh White and ASPI Executive Director Peter Jennings speak at the Press Club on the topic Australia's Future Submarines - Time for Plan B?"
too early, on the day it was broadcast on ABC TV.
So thanks for alerting me that it is now on ABC (computer) iView for a limited time.
For other Submarine Matters users. The video It is at https://iview.abc.net.au/show/national-press-club-address/series/0/video/NC2011C007S00
Regards
Pete
Kind of ironic watching the debate stating that the interim solution of buying F-18 super hornets as a stop gap waiting for the F-35s was a success nobody even mentions the mere possibility of purchasing off the selves sub stop gap solution.
ReplyDeleteAustralia can purchase three to four subs like the Soryu while waiting for the French finally develop Australian sub in the 30-40s.LoL
Thanks /Kjell
ReplyDeleteFor https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/03/attack-class-submarine-main-storage-batteries-contract-awarded/
No real surprise PMB Defence won the main Lead-acid battery contract for Attack class.
PMB being mention in 2015 here https://www.defencesa.com/upload/media-centre/publications/fac/3295/Techport%20Australia%20Brochure%20June%202015.pdf
"PMB Defence is a leading manufacturer of high-quality submarine battery systems,
involved with the Collins class submarines since their inception. PMB Defence has been
engaged by Defence in initial Future Submarine capability studies and continues to grow
its broader energy and engineering capabilities."
and at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2015/11/look-at-japans-next-generation.html
Regards
Pete
Hi Anonymous [March 14, 2020 at 4:38 PM]
ReplyDeleteInteresting to see if the other 2 countries that build SSNs and SSKs (ie. Russia and China) start to seriously develop pumpjets for SSKs.
Japan, of course, use the US designed Harpoon ASM (designated UGM-84 in submarine mode) see Japan at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_(missile)#Operators
Japan's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_P-1#Specifications_(XP-1) use the Harpoon AGM-84
Australia's old Oberon class sub used the Harpoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon-class_submarine#Regional_variations as does the Collins today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins-class_submarine#Armament
Thanks,very interesting that "Konsberg are also considering a sub launched JSM version (along with a mk41 vls version). JSM is all about stealth. Not only is it low observable, both it’s seekers are passive. What better to be firing rom a SSK?"
Regards
Pete
Hi Tri-ring [at March 16, 2020 at 4:46 PM]
ReplyDeleteA very bold, farsighted Australian Defence Minister, Brendan Nelson, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Nelson#Minister_for_Defence_(2006%E2%80%932007) made the correct decision to buy the Super Hornet as an interim fighter - against RAAF advice!
But. it is notable the Super Hornet did not need major modifications for Australian service.
Japan's Soryu WOULD need major modifications, for Australian service:
- including: twice the diesel fuel load (for 12,000nm range) with major buoyancy tank adjustments
and
- integration of AN/BYG-1 Combat System (about 30% of the submarine build) see https://www.defence.gov.au/spi/Docs/Public-AIC-Plan-SEA-1000-ASCS-CSI-LMA.pdf
So a Soryu for Australia would take at least 7 years to build. Then 2 to 3 years to fully test and commission - a very non-interim prospect.
Also Japan may be unwilling to launch such a project for just 4 subs.
Regards
Pete
Pete
ReplyDeleteLooks as if you still do not understand what,"AIP endurance (est.): 6100 nautical miles" means.
The sterling engine is a massively energy inefficient engine since most of the combustion power is lost and not utilized to power the engine.Energy efficiency rate would probably be around 10%, an internal combustion engine has around 40% efficiency rate at peak performance because the heat and combustion power is released within a closed chamber to thrust directly against the piston unlike the sterling engine which heats a medium outside the chamber and only utilizes the temperature difference to move the piston requiring to burn more fuel to gain present efficiency rate to power the sub hindering range (endurance) when utilizing the AIP.
Since Australia does not require sterling AIP the range of the Soryu class will naturally increase and weight of the sub will decrease with that configuration.
Giddy Tri-ring
ReplyDeleteAs you say "Looks as if you still do not understand" that "AIP endurance (est.): 6100 nautical miles" is an uninformed typo at Wikipedia and GlobalSecurity about the Soryu Mark I's whole range (on diesel fuel and AIP) being 6,100nm.
And in any case:
- Australia has shown no interest in AIP (on diminishing utility of AIP for Australia's longer submarine mission grounds), and
- since 27SS Japan is no longer building Soryu's with AIP. Instead LIBs are providing extra submerged performance.
There's no "natural increase" in doubling the range of a Soryu without major redesigning.
Cheers
Pete
Still not understanding it;
ReplyDeleteIF the sterling engines are removed and the diesel fuel is used to power the diesel engines instead of sharing it with the Sterling engines then the fuel will be used more efficiently resulting to more range.
It's simple math;
X*Y=XY Range running on diesel engine alone
(X*Y*40%)+(X*Z*60%)=XY/60+XZ/40 Range running diesel engine 40% and sterling engine 60% of the overall journey.
X=amount of diesel fuel in gallons
Y=Miles per gallon utilizing diesel engine
Z=Miles per gallon utilizing sterling engine
Y>Z At ball park estimate Y=2Z
X*3Z/40+X*Z/60=13XZ/12
XY=2XZ
So if you remove the sterling engines from the Soryu and run on the diesel engines alone it will naturally extend the range by a considerable distance with the same amount of diesel fuel.