Anonymous, on September 29, 2018, provided for Taiwan's Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) Project:
- confirmed details of Taiwan hiring Japanese, and US contractors and
- unconfirmed details of hiring European contractors
and offers of submarine designs by India, Japan South Korea, the US and
Italy.
Pete has added comments in square [...] brackets.
CONFIRMED
Taiwan's IDS team has hired Japanese contractors (who have temporarily or permanently retired from KHI and MHI).
Taiwanese companies can manufacture some submarine parts. For example, a type of pressure hull steel plate slightly weaker than the HY-80 was produced by a Taiwanese steel company and will be used for Taiwan's submarines. [The pressure hull steel may be “HSLA-80” produced by Taiwan's China Steel Corporation. See SubMatt’s September 21, 2016 article].
Very sensitive things will be imported by Lockheed Martin including the combat system (eg. sonar portion). [Very likely that some usually US based Lockheed Martin contractors, for combat system integration, will be at work in Taiwan].
UNCONFIRMED
Japan’s [KHI? MHI? and Government?] have proposed use of designs of improved versions of Japan's teardrop shaped Yūshio class or Harushio class submarines.
Italy (reportedly). proposed a modern version of the Sauro class [right-click mouse to Translate from Italian].
Taiwan's IDS team has apparently hired a chief engineer who
designed the teardrop shaped Zwaardvis class submarine in the Netherlands, a German submarine
technician, and even a Russian submarine technician (according to rumors).
The United States [may have] proposed a Barbel class teardrop shaped submarine design.
South Korea may have proposed a [German designed Type] 209
class submarine (according to rumors).
Lockheed Martin has advised Taiwan to adopt an
X-plane rudder, instead of a [more traditional, in attack
submarines] cruciform rudder.
Apparently India offered a Kalvari class variant design of the Scorpene class submarine to
Taiwan. [Although the French Naval Group designers of Scorpenes may have a
right to block the sale of Scorpene designs to Taiwan].
Since many parts cannot be manufactured by Taiwan, most parts
are planned to be imported from Europe.
Anonymous and Pete
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteFrom the view points of legal restriction on technology transfer, asset holders of Japanese submarine, and political priorities of PM Abe, Japanese government is not involved in “the IDS program of Taiwan.”
(1)Legal restriction on technology transfer
From the legal point of view, Japanese government must satisfy “The Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment and Technology” [1] for the submarine technogy transfer. Third Principle “Ensuring appropriate control regarding extra-purpose use or transfer to third parties” and “the Guideline of The Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment and Technology” are applied to the submarine technology transfer to Taiwan. To satisfy the Guideline, the Agreement between the Government of Japan and the Government of Taiwan concerning the Transfer of Defence Equipment and Technology is needed. But, there is not such agreement. Also, In the submarine technology transfer to Taiwan, there is a serious concern which may cause serious conflict with China, and this does not satisfy the Guideline.
(2)Asset holders of Japanese submarine
As Japanese Ministry of Defence consigns submarine building to subcontractors (KHI and MH), KHI and MHI can not offer design of Japanese submarine to third party without permission of Japanese government. Currently, Japanese government, KHI and MHI are not involved in Taiwan’s IDS program at all. Only retired engineers may be involved in it. If their behaviors are against contract with KHI/MHI or related law regulations, they can not be involved in the IDS program.
(3)Political priorities of PM Abe
Prime concern of PM Abe is revision of the Consititution [2]. Northern Territories return and Signed peace treaty with Russia, resolution of Futenma relocation issue, improvement of relation with China are very important [3]. If Japan conducts the submarine transfer to Taiwan, Japan will experience serious diplomatic conflict with China.
[1] https://www.mofa.go.jp/press/release/press22e_000010.html
The Guideline is not translated into English.
[2]https://www.sankei.com/politics/news/180813/plt1808130004-n1.html
[3] https://japan.kantei.go.jp/97_abe/statement/201701/1221105_11567.html
Policy Speech by Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to the 193rd Session of the Diet
Regards
Hello, Pete.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to get information about the Taiwan submarine project, I would recommend viewing this website. This website provides a chronological overview of the submarine projects in Taiwan that have been launched since 2010. This site has a high reputation in Taiwan, so the reliability of the data is high. You can use Google Translator to get a rough idea of what it means.
http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/rocnavy/kh8-3.htm
Thanks Anonymous [at 2/10/18 4:46 PM]
ReplyDeleteYour "(2) Asset holders of Japanese submarine" is particularly interesting.
With the explanation along the lines:
As the Japanese Ministry of Defence consigns submarine building to subcontractors (KHI and MH), KHI and MHI can not offer design of Japanese submarines to third parties without the permission of the Japanese government.
Currently, the Japanese government, KHI and MHI are not involved in Taiwan’s Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) program at all.
Only retired engineers may be involved in it. If their behavior is against the contracts (eg. commercial secrecy agreements) these retired KHI/MHI signed with KHI/MHI or related legal regulations, they cannot be involved in the IDS program.
Regards
Pete
Hi Anonymous [at 2/10/18 4:55 PM]
ReplyDeleteThankyou for Taiwanese (Mandarin Chinese) language document http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/rocnavy/kh8-3.htm on the Taiwanese submarines project since 2010.
Once translated the information in it explains many of the foreign participation and technical issues about the project.
I will use parts of the document for articles next week.
Regards
Pete
Taiwan officially hired Gavron Ltd, a consultancy firm in Gibraltar to review the submarine's design proposals. Gavron is looking for 3 SME on system integration, survivability and structural integrity. Job posts are on an European database but the positions are to be based in Kiaoshiung.
ReplyDeleteKQN
Hi KQN [at 8/10/18 10:38 AM] on Taiwan hiring, "six employees" company to design Taiwan's new submarine. The curious may note this company may? come from the non-tax shelter, non-shelf company "country" of Gibraltar most famous for large scale industrial design (not).
ReplyDeleteSee https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03429527 for Gavron's previous details?
"Registered office address: 162 High Road, Leytonstone, London, E15 2QS
Company status: Dissolved on 15 November 2016
Company type: Private limited Company
Incorporated on 4 September 1997
Accounts Last accounts made up to 30 September 2014
Nature of [previous] business (SIC) 47110 - Retail sale in non-specialised stores with food, beverages or tobacco predominating"
I'm wondering whether the (hasn't built a conventional sub since the 1980s) UK custodian of Gibraltar plays some role in all this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submarine#Submarines_in_class
By way of world beating suitability Mysterious Taiwanese? (or PRC?) document of October 2018 http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/rocnavy/kh8-3.htm indicates:
"According to Linkedin, Gavron Limited has a total of six employees, indicating that the company will provide Taiwan with new diesel-electric submarine design, including combat system integration, Entity integration and testing and evaluation. However, the signing of the Taiwanese ship was not through public bidding, and Gavron Limited was able to defeat the world's leading military and factory companies, including the United States, and was questioned."
Its a start. But may immediately raise questions...
hi,
ReplyDeletehttps://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3552735
this article suggests the U.S. may have concern over Taiwan's choice of Gavron Limited.
Further on Taiwan's choice of, on paper http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/rocnavy/kh8-3.htm ,
ReplyDelete6 employee, shelf company, with no evident experience with defence issues, let alone submarines.
By Teng Pei-ju for The Taiwan News, October 15, 2018 reports https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3552735 :
"U.S. official raises doubts about design consultancy firm overseeing new submarine construction:
Gavron Limited won the bid for a NT$600 million contract to supervise CSBC Taiwan's new submarine design.
TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — A U.S. national defense official expressed skepticism about the credentials of Gavron Limited, a consultancy appointed to supervise the design of Taiwan’s new domestically-built submarine, Apple Daily reports.
The Gibraltar-based consultancy won a bid to oversee the design of a new submarine by Taiwan Shipbuilding Corporation (CSBC Taiwan). CSBC Taiwan has been contracted by the Taiwanese Navy to provide a new vessel as part of its indigenous defense submarine (IDS) program.
The information is based on word of a Taiwanese scholar who had a private conversation with the U.S. official. Both names were obscured in the report.
According to the U.S. official, even though Gavron Limited has acquired the export permit issued by Gibraltar authorities that allows the company to work with Taiwan as a design consultancy for the project, the permit does not guarantee that Gavron Limited is capable of carrying out the NT$600 million (US$19 million) project.
He even suggested the case could be fraudulent.
The official was also worried that Gavron Limited might, because of the contract, acquire classified information about CSBC Taiwan’s design for the submarine, which contains systems provided by the United States.
Last week, Taiwan’s lawmakers also expressed concern over the credibility of Gavron Limited and its export permit, and asked for further verification from the Navy during a legislative session."
The Navy said on Oct. 11 [2018] that the contract with Gavron Limited is being handled by the CSBC Taiwan, which chose the best bid in accordance with the government’s procurement and bidding regulations, and by a committee comprising Taiwanese officials, experts, and CSBC Taiwan representatives."
PETE COMMENT
Is Taiwan's submarine project merely a low budget political tool to keep the US interested in the unviable defense of Taiwan? Taiwan will not be able to use 3 to 8 full sized submarines to defend the Taiwan Strait against 100s of PR China sensors and AUV smart torpedoes.
Hi Punter [at 16/10/18 5:09 PM]
ReplyDeleteThanks for the heads up.
Regards
Pete
Accusations of systemic fraud in Taiwan's naval acquisition sector get thicker on choice of Taiwan's choice submarine foreign contractor - see Taipei Times (TT's) http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2018/10/18/2003702602 of October 18, 2018:
ReplyDelete"...Gavron Ltd, a Gibraltar-based consultancy that won a bid valued at NT$1 billion (
[of only a chickenfeed sum of] US$32.41 million)
to supervise the design of the submarines..." [See more]
[In a previous example of fraud and bribes in Taiwan] "...Wang, who at the time was the local agent for Lafayette [frigate] manufacturer Thomson CSF — now known as Thales Group — and his associates reportedly pocketed about US$500 million in commissions for the deal..."
"...Tsai Mei-chuan (柴美娟), who is listed as chairperson for NTN International Co, the agency representing Gavron in Taiwan,.."
COMMENT
Amazing how often French companies, be they DCNS or Thomson, become associated with naval purchase corruption scandals! eg:
- Malaysia Scorpene https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/scorpenes-sting-liberation-publishes-expose-re-malaysias-bribery-murder-scandal-05347/ and https://www1.nst.com.my/news/nation/2018/06/382927/french-judiciary-pursuing-scorpene-corruption-scandal-lge
- Pakistan Agosta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachi_affair
- India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpene_deal_scam
- even Brazil Scorpene https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/05/22/french-officials-probe-bribery-allegations-in-brazil-scorpene-sale/
Any Australia Shortfin scandal, yet?
Might Gavron be a front company for actual UK submarine contractors?
ReplyDeleteMaybe builder of the Astutes, BAE Systems Maritime – Submarines at Barrow-in-Furness and separatly BMT?
DefenseWorld.net Oct 27, 2018 reports http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23569/Taiwan_Hires_Gibraltar_Based_Consultant_to_Create_Submarine_Blueprints#.W9OeUdUzbX4 :
ReplyDelete"Taiwan has hired a Gibraltar based design firm, Gavron Limited to create blueprints to build 8 indigenous submarines expected to cost NT$500 billion (US$16.13 billion). [Pete Comment: A more realistic amount than mere US$millions to fund a new submarine program]
Minister of National Defense Yen De-fa told lawmakers yesterday that the nation’s Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) program is on track. A deadline of March 1, 2019 has been set for Gavron Limited to submit blueprints for the program’s first phase, Taipei Times reported."
Hi,
ReplyDeletethis article says,
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2018/10/26/2003703064
" Lawmakers said they had reports that top Taiwanese officials had over the past month visited Europe and signed a memorandum of understanding with Gavron.
" The memorandum requires that Gavron obtain export licenses from the UK government to certify that it is allowed to export military technology, submarine design and construction know-how, and British naval weapons to Taiwan, the lawmakers said. ".
Thanks PUNTER [at 28/10/18 5:30 AM]
ReplyDelete"export licenses from the UK government to certify that it is allowed to export military technology, submarine design and construction know-how"
is much in line with my suspicion [at 27/10/18 10:07 AM above] that Gavron is a front company for Britain's main submarine maker, BAE Systems Maritime – Submarines at Barrow-in-Furness.
It should be remembered that BAE Systems Maritime – Submarines was previously Vickers Shipbuilding & Engineering Ltd (VSEL) the company that built Britain's last conventional submarines. These were the Upholders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submarine#Design_and_development
Regards
Pete