Kockums, since it returned to Swedish ownership (bought by Saab) in July 2014, has been trying to find foreign buyers for the A26 and variants. In 2014 a variant concept was the 4,000 ton Type 612, which Kockums attempted to market to Australia in the future submarine (SEA 1000) competition. France's DCNS (now Naval Group) won the Australian competition.
Navyrecognition provided details on August 31, 2017 concerning Saab Kockums concept proposal of three A26 SSK variants (illustrated at Artwork A. below).
Artwork A. Saab Kockums August 31, 2017 concept proposal of three A26 SSK variants. Artwork courtesy Saab Kockums via navyrecognition.
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Pete Comment/Background
Using the Saab via navyrecognition details the three A26 variants in Artwork A consist of:
The "Pelagic" (Open Sea) variant can perhaps relate to Baltic, Mediterranean, Arabian and Caribbian Sea use. This variant is small – 50m long, about 1,000 tons (surfaced), 4,000nm range at 10 knots. Endurance at patrol speed is over 20 days assisted by the AIP module. Standard complement is 17 to 25. Saab Kockums may have the best chance of selling these small submarines to smaller navy customers including those who use subs for non-state threats, eg. Canada and Latin American countries in alliance with the US countering drug smuggling.
The Oceanic (Extended Range) variant is a stretched
version A26. It is longer than 80m, over 3,000 tons (surfaced). Range is over
10,000nm at 10 knots. Endurance at patrol speed is over 50 days assisted by the
AIP module. Standard complement is 20 to 50.
Saab Kockums will have a battle selling the Oceanic and Oceanic (Extended Range) variants given TKMS is already established selling larger than the usual (1,800 ton submarines) to Israel, Singapore and designs to South Korea. India may be the best remaining slightly large submarine customer under Project 75I.
Artwork B. Saab Kockums concept proposal of the Vertical Launch System (VLS) or Vertical Multi-Purpose Lock (VMPL) module(s) option that can be fitted to A26 SSK variants. Artwork courtesy Saab Kockums via Submarine Matters via navyrecognition. via
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Pete
Peter
ReplyDeleteIf the Dutch are looking for similar range to their existing, then they would need the extended range version unless the only difference between the 2,000t & 2,300t versions is fuel. Current Walrus class is 10k nm @ 9knts. Your specs for extended range version is 10k nm @ 10 knts.
Regards
A reliable source in the Dutch DMO (Defensie Materiaal Organisatie) says that the Vertical Launch System (VLS) is an integral part of the A26 design. In other words: if a customer wants an A26 without VLS, he has to pay additional money for the modification of his A26 model without VLS.
ReplyDeleteArming submarines with cruise missiles fits in the military trend of the acquisition of this kind of weapons by many armed forces around the globe.
For example: the Finnish navy ordered the Gabriel V (5) anti ship missile. However, the Gabriel 5 has nothing in common with former Gabriel models, which were short range littoral weapons. The Gabriel V has a launch weight of 1.250 kg, compare that to the 1.455 kg heavy Tomahawk (16 % heavier) at launch. The Swedish contender RBS 15 Mk.4 Gungnir weighs 810 kg at launch. Has an approx 200 kg warhead with a range of over 300 km. Algeria has armed their 2 Kilo sub's with the Club-S (export Kalibr) cruise missiles for the Land Attack role. The Club-S has an official range of 220 km, with a 200 kg warhead. Pakistan and China reverse-engineered the Tomahawk and are producing them. Taiwan, Israel and South-Korea have developed their own roughly 1.000+ - 1.500 km range cruise missiles.
Pete, did Kockums ever offer a Type 612 submarine version to Australia with VLS ?
Locum,
ReplyDeleteHi Pete
Few years ago, SAAB revealed Babcok, a VLS manufacturer would participate SAAB’s submarine for Netherlands.
https://www.babcockinternational.com/what-we-do/marine/defence/equipment-and-systems/submarine-equipment/
Regards
Hi Locum
ReplyDeleteThanks for your July 26, 2020 at 12:11 AM comment.
Given SAAB has featured the HORIZONTAL Multimission Portal for the A26 - see page 10 of https://saab.com/globalassets/commercial/naval/submarines-and-warships/submarines/a26/saab_kockums-a26_brochure_a4_final_aw_screen.pdf I find it hard to believe your "reliable source" on customers paying extra NOT to have VLS.
It may be good policy for SAAB's competitors (Naval Group and TKMS) to spread a SAAB-must-have-VLS unless Netherlands pays extra rumour.
I think it unlikely Sweden would feature VLS (usually designed for land attack missiles) in Sweden's own A26s, with the only likely land attack target being Russia. I don't think Sweden would contemplate land-attacking Russia.
I think Finland buying Gabriel V (5) anti ship missile for its SURFACE ships is unrelated to a submarine Finland won't be buying
Cheers
Pete
Hi Anonymous [at July 26, 2020 at 6:20 PM]
ReplyDeleteThere's no mention of the Netherlands, Sweden or SAAB in the link
https://www.babcockinternational.com/what-we-do/marine/defence/equipment-and-systems/submarine-equipment/
that you have provided.
Regards
Pete
Reaction to Pete's post July 27, 5:18 PM,
ReplyDeleteGoodday Pete, the cruise missile proved during ops Desert Storm (Gulfwar 1991) itself as an effective but relatively cheap "First Strike" weapon. Countries like Russia, Iran, India and China thoroughly analysed the strong and weak points of the Coalition.
The answer came in the form of Anti Acess - Area Denial (A2 - AD) strategies. Many in the West suppose that A2 - AD strategies work only with rather stationary and thus defensive 'bubbles'. No, for example, the Russian and Iranian A2-AD have those 'bubbles'. But their primary A2-AD tools are their strategically deep striking weapons, meant to blunt or paralyse a "Desert Storm" like attack.
You can counter the proliferated cruise missile and tactical ballistic misslie (TBM) threat by a layered defense system with capable but expensive Patriots, SM-3's and NASAMS. Those crucially and in NATO too scarce systems are defensive only. Having flying 'Big Cigars' yourself can deter an opponent to use those weapons against you. Or give you the capability to open gaps in an adversary's A2-AD bubbles.
In the eighties, the Swedes originally planned to equip their Vastergotland submarines with a VLS for RBS15 anti ship missiles. Costs cancelled this plan.
The RBS15 Mk.1 an 2 had an effective estimated range of 100 km and 150 km max. range.
The RBS15 Mk.3 is not an upgrade, but in fact a completely different missile, which got in 2007 also a Land Attack mode. Effective range increased to an estimated 200 km and 250 km max. range. The RBS15 Mk.4 has an official range of +300 km. We see the same trend in Eastern-Asia and Israel.
The Swedish A26's are not equipped with VLS, but according to my source the VLS is an integral part of the export A26 versions. Because almost al potential A26 customers have to deal with the cruise missile and TBM threat. Submarines are for them not only a very powerful anti-ship/submarine weapon, but increasingly a strategical power projection tool. The horizontal Multi Mission Portal will be used for divers, ROV's and AUV's
The Dutch Navy hasn't a requirement for launching cruise missiles like the Tomahawk for their Walrus replacement. Saab-Kockums and Damen are offering a 73 meter long boat with a diameter of 8 meters, a bit bigger than the Walrus. This is certainly not a stretched A26 !
Locum
Hi Locum
ReplyDeleteI agree with your comment "The Dutch Navy hasn't a requirement for launching cruise missiles like the Tomahawk for their Walrus replacement."
So Saab would not try to force the Dutch to buy an A26 VL [vertical launch tube] design version (see it at Artwork B. at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2017/09/saab-kockums-concept-proposal-of-three.html )
The UK Atutute class SSNs, which DO have Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles DO NOT have vertical launch tubes see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine#Weapons_and_systems Also the French Barracuda SSN, with land attack cruise missiles, does not have vertical launch tubes.
The Saab A26 VL [vertical launcher] CONCEPT is only an advertising tool to give customers an idea of possibilities.
Just because Saab has a paper-concept A26 VL [vertical launcher] this would not force customers to buy A26 VL [vertical launcher]
And there is no way Saab would charge customers extra if they wanted a large conventional Walrus replacement submarine without vertical launchers.
In fact only the US and Russians can afford SSNs and/or SSGNs with the expensive option of vertical launch tubes for CRUISE missiles.
Pete
Of course South Korea is yet to commission the first KSS-III "Dosan Ahn Changho-class" submarine which has vertical launch tubes for cruise and/or ballistic missiles.
ReplyDeleteSee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosan_Ahn_Changho-class_submarine
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteSource of comment (July 26, 2020 at 6:20 PM) is briefing on submarine for Netherlands by Damen & SAAB Kockums in EURONAVAL 2018 [1].
[1] https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/geopolitica/euronaval-2018-saab-e-damen-se-unem-para-cumprir-os-requisitos-do-novo-submarino-holandes
“EURONAVAL 2018- Saab e Damen se unem para cumprir os requisitos do novo submarino holandês”
Nesta versão, denominada pelos holandeses como Expedicionary, terá o diâmetro do casco aumentado para 8,3m em comparação com o A26 Oceanic que tem 6,75m de diâmetro. Mas a grande novidade será a inclusão de uma seção para lançamento vertical de mísseis Tomahawk, com a participação da Babcock International Group.
(Translation)
In this version, called by the Dutch as Expedicionary, the hull diameter will be increased to 8.3m compared to the A26 Oceanic, which is 6.75m in diameter. But the big news will be the inclusion of a section for vertical launch of Tomahawk missiles, with the participation of Babcock International Group.
Regards
Hi Anonymous [at August 4, 2020 at 8:17 PM]
ReplyDeleteThanks for the October 23, 2018
account you cite, from Euronaval 2018
which has concept submarine plastic
Saab model
which has 18 Vertical launch slots.
It goes without saying that Naval Group and TKMS
will charge the Netherlands US$200 million more
than Saab
for a plastic concept model with, not 18, but 24 slots
Yours in Rumours
Pete
"I don't think Sweden would contemplate land-attacking Russia."
ReplyDeleteWhy not? That is exactly what Sweden intends to do with RBS 15 ver 4 and the long range cruise missile Sweden intends to aquire. Sweden of course realizes it have to be able to strike russian anti air systems, Iskander systems and airbases and for that Sweden need cruise missiles.
BR /Sommarfararen
Hi BR /Sommarfararen
ReplyDeleteRe your "Sweden of course realizes it have to be able to strike russian anti air systems, Iskander systems and airbases and for that Sweden need cruise missiles."
I suggest you don't know much about strategic realities between Sweden (a medium military power) against Russian (a mulitary superpower in conventional and Nuclear weapon terms).
Sweden firing land attack missiles at Russian territory is as likely as Mexican or Canadian cruise missiles attacking the USA!
Regards
Pete