Comments by
Japanese friends, in July and August 2016, provide a whole body of insights and
details little discussed in the submarine Anglosphere.
New Japanese Defence Minister Inada. Nakatani demoted?
In early August 2016 Japan’s conservative Prime
Minister Abe appointed a like-minded conservative as Defence Minister. She is Tomomi Inada. Too early
to tell what impact she will have. She is considered highly
nationalist by China and some other regional neighbours. “Many
political observers in Japan believe
that Abe is grooming Inada to be his successor…”
I don’t
know if former Defence Minister Nakatani has been demoted? If so, was it due to not selling the sub to Australia?
Sub size and sonars
Gleaned from Comments (27/7/16
12:05) from ex-Vice Admiral, Masao
Kobayashi (SHIPS OF THE WORLD, from 2016, No.9) along the lines that generally the
larger the submarine the more powerful and effective its sonars. This places
larger, reactor powered, submarines at the top of the sonar effectiveness tree
(particularly for more commonly used passive sonars). The large SSKs, like the
Soryu and future Shortfin, would rate highly. Small SSKs (eg. TKMS Ula class and Type
210mod) not so much.
SORYU TABLE (with earlier Oyashios) as at August 26, 2016
SS
|
Build No
|
Pennant
|
MoF approved
amount ¥ Billions & FY
|
LABs, LIBs, AIP
|
Laid Down
|
Laun
|
Commi-ssioned
|
Built
|
8105 Oyashio
|
¥52.2B
|
LABs only
|
Jan 1994
|
Oct 1996
|
Mar 1998
|
KHI
|
||
6SS-15SS
|
8106
|
SS-591-600
|
¥52.2B per sub
|
LABs only
|
Feb 1994
|
Mar 2008
|
MHI
|
|
16SS
Soryu Mk
1
|
8116
|
SS-501
|
¥60B FY2004
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2005
|
Dec 2007
|
Mar
|
MHI
|
17SS
|
8117
|
SS-502
|
¥58.7B FY2005
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2006
|
Oct 2008
|
Mar
|
KHI
|
18SS
|
8118
|
SS-503
|
¥56.2 FY2006
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2007
|
Oct 2009
|
Mar
|
MHI
|
19SS
|
8119
|
SS-504
|
¥53B FY2007
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2008
|
Nov 2010
|
Mar
|
KHI
|
20SS
|
8120
|
SS-505
|
¥51B FY2008
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2009
|
Oct 2011
|
Mar
|
MHI
|
No
|
No 21SS built
|
|||||||
22SS
|
8121
|
SS-506
|
¥52.8B FY2010
|
LABs + AIP
|
Jan 2011
|
Oct 2013
|
Mar
|
KHI
|
23SS
|
8122
|
SS-507
|
¥54.6B FY2011
|
LABs + AIP
|
Feb 2012
|
Oct 2014
|
7 Mar 2016
|
MHI
|
24SS
|
8123
|
SS-508
|
¥54.7B FY2012
|
LABs + AIP
|
Mar 2013
|
2 Nov 2015
|
Mar? 2017
|
KHI
|
25SS
|
8124
|
SS-509
|
¥53.1B FY2013
|
LABs + AIP
|
22 Oct 2013
|
Nov? 2016
|
Mar? 2018
|
MHI
|
26SS
|
8125
|
SS-510
|
¥51.7B FY2014
|
LABs + AIP
|
2014
|
?
|
Mar 2019?
|
KHI
|
27SS
Soryu Mk
2
|
8126
|
SS-511
|
¥64.3B FY2015
|
LIBs only
|
2015
|
2017?
|
Mar
2020
|
MHI
|
28SS
Soryu Mark 2
|
8127
|
SS-512
|
¥63.6B FY2016
|
LIBs only
|
2016?
|
2018?
|
Mar 2021?
|
KHI
|
29SS
New
Class
|
?
|
?
|
¥76B FY2018 |
LIBs only
|
?
|
?
|
2023?
|
MHI?
|
Table courtesy of information provided
to Submarine Matters. LABs = lead-acid batteries, AIP = air
independent propulsion, LIBs = lithium-ion batteries. ¥***B = Billion Yen.
HIGHER COST FOR HIGHER PERFORMANCE OF SORYU MARK 2s (Mk 2s)
THEY ARE 27SS AND 28SS
[Pete Comment - The budgeting for the Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) is single year and multi-year depending on the documents. The Board of Audit (BoA) and Ministry of Finance (MoF) need to be convinced that ongoing or higher funding is needed for MoD's new submarine requests. The conceptual complexity of these requests is something MoD needs to constantly explain to MoF and to other relevant branches of Government.]
Gleaned from Comments The non-AIP Soryu Mark 2’s (27SS onwards) and follow-on class will paradoxically have some structural similarities to the non-AIP Oyashios that preceded the AIP Soryu Mark 1’s.
THEY ARE 27SS AND 28SS
[Pete Comment - The budgeting for the Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) is single year and multi-year depending on the documents. The Board of Audit (BoA) and Ministry of Finance (MoF) need to be convinced that ongoing or higher funding is needed for MoD's new submarine requests. The conceptual complexity of these requests is something MoD needs to constantly explain to MoF and to other relevant branches of Government.]
Gleaned from Comments The non-AIP Soryu Mark 2’s (27SS onwards) and follow-on class will paradoxically have some structural similarities to the non-AIP Oyashios that preceded the AIP Soryu Mark 1’s.
Gleaned from Comments
(on 21/8/16 3:30 PM) In the FY 2018 budgetary request, the
Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) will request 76 billion Yen (0.99 billion
AUD) for the first of the New Submarine Class (29SS) which will be Commissioned? “End of FY 2021” [that is in
2022?]. 29SS will be equipped with
an improved
sonar system and will be more silent/stealthy.
The MoD may explain the increased budgets for 27SS and 28SS to the Board of Audit (BoA), but BoA will not accept the increased budget [merely] due to the price of LIBs. If 27SS and 28SS are not equipped with the new snorkel generation system, the floating [elastc sound reducing] deck and new sonar system, the price of 29SS which utilises these systems and new [G-RX6 see above] torpedoes will be nearly 80 billion yen. This is too expensive. [Pete comment - This quite confusing logistical budgeting situation will be clarified over time.]
- See http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/research/gijutu_senpa_en.html Japan is developing the Heavy weight [G-RX6] torpedo (HWT) for submarine, in order to oppose highly efficient surface warships and submarines. The HWT hass an advanced [Torpedo counter counter measures] TCCM function, and is excellent in detection, tailing, and the performance in deep and shallow ocean. The TCCM capability reduces or eliminates the effect of enemy ship's or submarine's decoys and acoustic jamming. [Pete comment: It is strongly assumed Japanese HWTs share technology with the US Mark 48 eg. in TCCM and deeper/shallower performance.]
Pete and Japanese Friends
Comments
gleaned May 2016 to August 2016
New Snorkel
Budgeting Details
[Pete comment - Japan is perfecting a new snorkel system
that is effective in the higher sea states (eg, storms) that are common in the
Pacific.]
(12/5/16 2:19 PM) The snorkel generation system which MoD
will use for Soryu Mark 2s (27SS and 28SS) is to be consist of a snorkel
system and diesel generator. This terminology is rather difficult to
understand, because the snorkel system does not generate power. But, this odd
terminology has important meaning in the MoD budget and tender system.
27SS budget complexities
A competitive tender is applied for purchasing the diesel generator, because it is general equipment. In contrast, an optional contract can be applied for purchasing the snorkel generation system, according to related law [known as Cabinet Order on Budgets, the Settlement of Accounts, and Accounting (Chapter VII), Article 102-4, (iii)]. The suppler of snorkel generation system can select diesel generator as part, and consequently MoD can effectively exclude undesired diesel generator, I think.
27SS budget complexities
A competitive tender is applied for purchasing the diesel generator, because it is general equipment. In contrast, an optional contract can be applied for purchasing the snorkel generation system, according to related law [known as Cabinet Order on Budgets, the Settlement of Accounts, and Accounting (Chapter VII), Article 102-4, (iii)]. The suppler of snorkel generation system can select diesel generator as part, and consequently MoD can effectively exclude undesired diesel generator, I think.
The MoD may explain the increased budgets for 27SS and 28SS to the Board of Audit (BoA), but BoA will not accept the increased budget [merely] due to the price of LIBs. If 27SS and 28SS are not equipped with the new snorkel generation system, the floating [elastc sound reducing] deck and new sonar system, the price of 29SS which utilises these systems and new [G-RX6 see above] torpedoes will be nearly 80 billion yen. This is too expensive. [Pete comment - This quite confusing logistical budgeting situation will be clarified over time.]
Higher LIBs performance at higher cost
The new propulsion systems for LIBs-Soryus (27SS and 28SS) are more expensive (1.1 billion yen) than those for
LABs-Soryus (0.9 billion yen). TMEIC (Toshiba Mitsubishi-Electric Industrial
Systems Corporation) won the competitive tender of the propulsion systems
against the conventional supplier, Fuji Electric Co., LTD.
It is expected the new propulsion systems are much more powerful than those for LABs-Soryus. LIB Soryus 27SS and 28SS will have a higher maximum speed than previous Soryus (reliant on LABs).
This is assuming
It is expected the new propulsion systems are much more powerful than those for LABs-Soryus. LIB Soryus 27SS and 28SS will have a higher maximum speed than previous Soryus (reliant on LABs).
This is assuming
i) increases in numbers and energy density of battery
modules are both +50%,
ii) maximum speed of submarine is proportionate to cube root
of total capacity of batteries,
iii) hotel loads at maximum speed are same for LIBs
and LABs Soryus.
G-RX6 - Future Heavy Weight Torpedo
It is not clear whether the FY 2018 budget for the first of the New (post Soryu) Submarine Class 29SS includes the new torpedo, G-RX6, cost or not. If the cost of the G-RX6s is not taken into account for this budget request, this will present a budgetary problem. The 29SS, if equipped with G-RX6s, will too expensive (eg. 80 billion Yen).
Judging from the budget status for development of the G-RX6, the development has nearly finished and 29SS can be equipped with G-RX6s. It is expected the 29SS will show much superior performance to current AIP Soryu Mark 1s (16SS to 26SS), because 29SS is 50% more expensive than 26SS!
Judging from the budget status for development of the G-RX6, the development has nearly finished and 29SS can be equipped with G-RX6s. It is expected the 29SS will show much superior performance to current AIP Soryu Mark 1s (16SS to 26SS), because 29SS is 50% more expensive than 26SS!
- See http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/research/gijutu_senpa_en.html Japan is developing the Heavy weight [G-RX6] torpedo (HWT) for submarine, in order to oppose highly efficient surface warships and submarines. The HWT hass an advanced [Torpedo counter counter measures] TCCM function, and is excellent in detection, tailing, and the performance in deep and shallow ocean. The TCCM capability reduces or eliminates the effect of enemy ship's or submarine's decoys and acoustic jamming. [Pete comment: It is strongly assumed Japanese HWTs share technology with the US Mark 48 eg. in TCCM and deeper/shallower performance.]
Pete and Japanese Friends
Pete:
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't expect the top speed to be that significantly higher on the new design because in addition to using up more power this would require a dramatically more powerful engine as well. You already note the logarithmic relationship of power to speed; this applies even more to the power of the engine than it does to the power storage capacity. High underwater speed in a D/E is only good for running away in a bad situation. Nukes can use it to actually change theaters. D/E designs generally hit a wall of cost-vs-benefit at ~20 knots and I wouldn't expect this to change despite the switch to LIB vice LAB/AIP: fundamentally even a D/E with all its diesels going is generating an order of magnitude less energy than an SSN and they can't afford to waste energy or likely even weight on a 25-30 knot capability.
Cheers,
Josh
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteLast year then-Defense Minister, Nakatani was heavily criticized by a weekly magazine because of incompetence, and the magazine predicted early change of the Defense Minister, but, it did not happen. In the failure of submarine tender, Mr. Nakatani was not blamed. So, I think the change of the Defense Minister is normal personnel change in the Cabinet Reshuffle. Of course, if Japan won the tender, Mr. Nakatani could have kept his position, I think. The new Defense Minister, madam hawk is acting energetically including just recent Japan-Australia Defense Ministerial Meeting [1, 2, 3]
[1]http://www.mod.go.jp/e/data/photogallery/index.html#meeting_0825 (Home Page, Photo Gallery, Japan-Australia Defense Ministerial Meeting (August 25, 2016, MOD))
[2]http://www.mod.go.jp/j/press/youjin/2016/08/25_gaiyo.html (Abstract of Japan-Australia Defense Ministerial Meeting (August 25, 2016, MOD))
[3]http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Japan-Australia-to-urge-China-to-comply-with-S.-China-Sea-ruling (Nikkei Asian Review, August 25, 2016 10:13 pm JST)
The Japanese and Australian defense ministers agreed Thursday to urge China to comply with an international tribunal ruling that denied Beijing's claims to almost all of the contested South China Sea, Japanese Defense Ministry officials said.
Judging from budget status for development of G-RX6, the development has nearly finished and 29SS can equip with G-RXs. I am expecting the 29SS shows much superior performance to current AIP Soryu, because 29SS is 50% expensive than 26SS!
Regards
S
I heard very interesting story as follows:
ReplyDeleteAll equipment inside the Japanese submarine can be disassembled into small parts to take out from a hatch in order to avoid hull cutting. Hull cutting causes reduction in roundness of hull inducing stain. None of Japanese submarines have experienced hull cutting except the case of Asashio for AIP equipment. In Collins-class submarine, the rough work, i.e., rectangular cut of hull is conducted for repair of diesel generators. For us, it is astonishing. As operation depth of Collins-class is shallow of 200m, such a hull cutting may be possible.
As leaked data of Scorpene reveals that its maximum submerging depth is 350m, Collins-class seems to have already lost regional superiority. Should Collins-class devote to surveillance avoiding combat with enemy submarine?
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteAccording to the ex-Vice Admiral, Masao Kobayashi, the combat policy of submarine is the same now as formerly which is “after firing torpedoes, dive deeper and faster.” He also said AIP-submarine must return its base after consumption of oxygen, but, LIBs-submarine needs not return its base.
Comment:
After firing torpedoes, Japanese submarine will dive very deeply with maximum speed to avoid counter attack of enemy. Japanese submarine can dive deeper than crusher depth of torpedo. If maximum speed of LIBs-Soryu is 4-5knot/h faster than that of AIP/LABs-Soryu, the former can reach maximum submerge depth few ten seconds earlier than the later. This may provide considerable improvement of survive ratio for conventional submarine during combat.
As defense strategy of Japan is exclusively defensive posture, Japan adopts combination of submarine and other effective measures such as P3-C or P1 hunter killer.
Various factors such as geopolitics, geology, overseas deployment of troops, domestic situation and defense policy of Australia are different from those of Japan reflecting nature and operation of submarine of the two countries.
Regards
S
Hi Josh, S and Anonymous
ReplyDeleteYou've provided very interesting comments in the thread above. I'll put them in an artilce tomorrow.
S [at 27/8/16 4:01 PM] "...After firing torpedoes, Japanese submarine will dive very deeply with maximum speed..." is most impressive.
Not may details about this level of submarine tactics is on the Internet. It would be interesting if websites with other submarines tactics information could be located .
Here's some non-Falklands/Belgrano involing HMS Conquerer http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9602103/HMS-Conquerors-biggest-secret-a-raid-on-Russia.html
Regards
Pete
ReplyDeleteHi Pete
Tough and strong hull of Japanese submarine enables application of this hit & run tactics. This is one of reasons for hesitation in technology transfer. The decision of full technology by Japanese government must have shocked JMSDF members, submariners and engineers. I think they relieve, especially after leakage of Scorpene technology.
Regards
S
Regarding provisition of a (non-DCNS, non-French) new snorkel generator system document details.
ReplyDeleteAs I don't know whether it is classified I can't publish it. I do not publish classified documents from allies.
(This is also noting that Submarine Matters has NOT published DCNS documents).
Pete
Thanks Wispywood2344
ReplyDeleteThe Combat Sytem upgrades for the Oyashios are important to maintain commonality with the Soryus and to extend the lives of the Oyashios to 22 years or longer.
Japan previously aimed for just 16 operational subs (with only 16 year lives) but this has proven inadequate.
This Oyashio life extension program (22 years or longer) is allowing Japan to field 22 operational submarines to meet Japan's higher threat environment (of steadily more Chinese, Russian and North Korean subs).
- As well as increased Chinese and Russian submarine quantities their quality is improving.
Regards
Pete
Hi Pete
ReplyDeleteNS110 reaches the highest state of development of high strength steel for pressure hull. Further increase in strength than that of NS110 may cause rapid reduction in toughness and considerable increase in welding difficulty.
Deviation form roundness of hull will provide reduction in clashing strength of pressure hull, and more than 30% reduction in the strength is very possible depending of the extent of deviation.
Regards
S
Hi S [at 1/9/16 12:58 AM]
ReplyDeleteThanks for your observations.
Do you think Russian submarine (using Titanium alloys for their pressure hulls) dive deeper than Japanese subs using NS110?
Regards
Pete
The TCCM function of the newest Japanese designs isn't from American designs, because Japan's large torpedo are much newer and more advanced, the USA hasn't released a large torpedo since the 70's (Mk.48).
ReplyDeleteJapan had made the type 73 torpedo, which was set to be advanced for TCCM capability. But the USA finally enabled sale of the Mk.46 torpedo to Japan, because this torpedo already had TCCM capability, Japan cancelled the funding to advance type 73 torpedo for TCCM capability. It simply opted to purchase the Mk.46.
The Japanese basically reverse engineered the TCCM (they even admit this) and improved it's capability for type 80 and 89 that followed.
The type replacing type 89 is the type 18 torpedo (G-RX7). This is basically upgrading the type 89 in every way, it has more advanced TCCM, it is quieter, and it can travel a longer distance. It can only be said that the TCCM is based loosely on the Mk.46 at this point, because it's just so much more advanced than that original TCCM technology.
The type 18 torpedo is literally the most advanced large torpedo in the world currently, it has the highest TCCM capability, it operates very quietly, can hit deep and shallow targets (subs and ships), long distance capability etc.
Japan has quite a history of torpedo advancement, even in WW2 Germany learned of some new torpedo technology types from the Japanese from transfer agreements between the two.
Thanks Annono for your August 23, 2020 comment.
ReplyDeleteSee my August 24, 2020 response at https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2020/08/japans-advanced-g-rx7-type-18.html
Regards
Pete