tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.comments2024-03-19T11:06:07.001+11:00Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear WeaponsPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger11546125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-24743691285065664432024-03-19T11:06:07.001+11:002024-03-19T11:06:07.001+11:00Thanks Gessler at 3/19/2024 4:18 AM
I'll turn...Thanks Gessler at 3/19/2024 4:18 AM<br /><br />I'll turn your comments and link into an article later this week.<br /><br />Cheers PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-45401609275417169572024-03-19T10:22:37.581+11:002024-03-19T10:22:37.581+11:00Hi Anonymous at 3/19/2024 9:32 AM
Thanks for the ...Hi Anonymous at 3/19/2024 9:32 AM<br /><br />Thanks for the 13 page "D Letter" Dutch Defense Advise to the Dutch Parliament in Dutch at <br />https://open.overheid.nl/documenten/bc3a7fe9-e74c-4aaa-811d-9367466608ee/file<br /><br />A summary in English would be of course better!?<br /><br />I see a pretty good but still lengthy summary of some issues at https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Wat-we-nu-weten-over-de-nieuwe-Nederlandse-onderzeeboten-160324.html and at https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Nederland-kiest-voor-Franse-boten-150324.html.<br /><br />Regards PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-679080043296266322024-03-19T09:42:24.089+11:002024-03-19T09:42:24.089+11:00Thanks Anonymous at 3/19/2024 8:54 AM
I have plac...Thanks Anonymous at 3/19/2024 8:54 AM<br /><br />I have placed the Specs at <br />https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg int the Table.<br /><br />Cheers Pete<br /><br />Pete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-9258385905802795162024-03-19T09:32:36.518+11:002024-03-19T09:32:36.518+11:00Hi all,
You can find the complete "D Letter&...Hi all,<br /><br />You can find the complete "D Letter" here : <br /><br />https://open.overheid.nl/documenten/bc3a7fe9-e74c-4aaa-811d-9367466608ee/file<br /><br />It explains why the french offer was chosen as the best offer, especially by the high level of performances of the submarine and its advanced design. And also Dutch industry participation.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-6851723345309842472024-03-19T08:54:42.581+11:002024-03-19T08:54:42.581+11:00Interesting picture and figures about Naval Group&...Interesting picture and figures about Naval Group's submarine on Marinescheppen.nl :<br /><br />https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg<br /><br />Full article :<br />https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/fiche-naval-group-onderzeeboten-nederland.jpg<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-57661423758709266442024-03-19T08:41:48.487+11:002024-03-19T08:41:48.487+11:00Hi Locum,
Do you have truth and fact based argume...Hi Locum,<br /><br />Do you have truth and fact based arguments to provide an impartial analysis ? Or are you only here to post French/Navalgroup bashing comments ?Gertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-60137381695831372902024-03-19T04:18:55.695+11:002024-03-19T04:18:55.695+11:00Hi Pete,
Unrelated to the topic, but regarding so...Hi Pete,<br /><br />Unrelated to the topic, but regarding something we talked about before:<br /><br />India has officially announced its test of an improved Agni-5 ballistic missile with Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) last week.<br /><br />https://fas.org/publication/indian-test-launch-of-mirv-missile-latest-sign-of-emerging-nuclear-arms-race/<br /><br />They did not release any information regarding how many re-entry vehicles this payload bus was tested with, but some defence journalists are speculating it wouldn't be bigger than a 3 or 4-MIRV configuration.<br /><br />It serves to note that at least two Chinese intelligence-gathering vessels were in the Indian Ocean Region during the period when the Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) for the test was in effect.<br /><br />One can't help but think back to the times when the Americans & the Soviets used to launch SLBM tests from their submarines when in positions where they can be assured that the other side gets a good look at your nuclear delivery capabilities - so that the purpose of deterrence is served.<br /><br />I wonder when the MIRVed K5 SLBM will show up.<br /><br />CheersGesslerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004046608501273026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-23767241501811505402024-03-18T21:58:50.386+11:002024-03-18T21:58:50.386+11:00Hi Locum at 3/18/2024 7:46 AM
Broad statements wi...Hi Locum at 3/18/2024 7:46 AM<br /><br />Broad statements without any links are not convincing.<br /><br />I suggest you provide some links.<br /><br />Regards PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-49314241546190388862024-03-18T07:46:39.923+11:002024-03-18T07:46:39.923+11:00Goodday,
All this information comes from French s...Goodday,<br /><br />All this information comes from French sites.<br />The Dutch DoD keeps their mouth tightly closed.<br />The Dutch lower house can still block this deal.<br />So the Naval Group is still very active with their PR.<br />Thus take the specs with a grain of salt.<br /><br />Dutch insiders regard this SMX 3.0 based proposal as a digital pie in the sky.<br />It's a clean sheet design, with not much COTS and MOTS components.<br />Many doubts about this French offer.<br /><br />Proven delivery times from contract signing to commission of the first boat:<br />TKMS:......... 7 years.<br />Saab-Kockums:..9 years.<br />Naval Ggroup:.14 years.<br />Or like the Attack class, even later.<br /><br />NG quotation price is 1 billion euro than the others. An offer below the costprice ?<br />Industrial participation. There are percentages floating around of 40 %, 15 %, and more realistically just approx 5 %. Because the industrial participation is in the agreements not written in stone. So the Naval Group can keep Dutch influence at design and construction as low as possible. Contracts for (integral) logistics support are seperate from the acquisition contract. Fear is that the logistics, maintenance, repair and overhaul will only fit French interests.<br />The detailed construction specifications will be decided in the coming (planned) three years. The propulsion configuration is still unclear. Dutch DoD already hints at French F21 torpedo and MdCN cruise missille. This design has no real drone / UAV integration.<br /><br />In The Netherlands we say: a donkey does not the same stone twice.<br />Well, Australia hit the French submarine rock already. The Dutch apparently did not learn anything.<br /><br />Locum,<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-12042400251983329812024-03-17T13:10:00.601+11:002024-03-17T13:10:00.601+11:00Thanks Anonymous's at 3/16/2024 8:44 PM and 3/...Thanks Anonymous's at 3/16/2024 8:44 PM and 3/16/2024 9:54 PM<br /><br />I've amended the Table using your information.<br /><br />Regards PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-26057862578544189842024-03-17T12:17:31.747+11:002024-03-17T12:17:31.747+11:00Hi Anonymous's and Kevin
Thanks for your resp...Hi Anonymous's and Kevin<br /><br />Thanks for your responses.<br /><br />Seems the Dutch Parliament may press for an increased proportion of Dutch work/input on the Orkas. <br /><br />This given the Orkas are being built in Cherbourg? in France? and not in the Netherlands.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherbourg_Naval_Base#Cherbourg_Arsenal<br /><br />Regards PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-59058874356809173202024-03-16T22:20:27.059+11:002024-03-16T22:20:27.059+11:00Hi Locum, a submarine of these size is actually to...Hi Locum, a submarine of these size is actually too big for the current base in Den Helder, especially the shiplift and maintenance hall.<br /><br />The main European/French TV media gives some technical data different from what we may have seen previously on Attack class or Barracuda SSNs.<br /><br />https://www.tf1info.fr/economie/chiffres-taille-longueur-propulsion-fiche-technique-le-barracuda-ce-sous-marin-francais-qui-vient-d-etre-vendu-a-la-marine-neerlandaise-pays-bas-2289595.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-30219035239708008722024-03-16T22:06:33.213+11:002024-03-16T22:06:33.213+11:00If the Netherlands government didn't choose Da...If the Netherlands government didn't choose Damen/Saab, even with a full construction in the Netherlands it is probably because their design is too far from the Swedish A26, leading to very risky project, and major overcosts (like on current A26 program), even if their offer have an higher price.<br />With the current geopolitical context, the also probably choose the French submarine for its better performances in all domains, especially if its derived from the Suffren class SSN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-8914759385689046802024-03-16T21:54:41.263+11:002024-03-16T21:54:41.263+11:00These two articles gives additional details on the...These two articles gives additional details on the size of this submarine (officially called Black Sword and not Shortfin?), its weapons and differences with the nuclear Barracuda of French Navy.<br /><br /><br /><br />https://meta-defense.fr/2024/03/15/blacksword-barracuda-naval-group/<br /><br />https://lemarin.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/naval-group/les-barracuda-hollandais-plus-compacts-mais-mieux-armes-que-les-francais-cb915704-e2e2-11ee-b685-1479f5265e87<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56624802369461990442024-03-16T20:44:11.351+11:002024-03-16T20:44:11.351+11:00Sounds right, we know little
From my understanding...Sounds right, we know little<br />From my understanding the manning is beetwween 35 and 52 (52 with about 10 Special Forces, this ability (DDS?)was specifically mentionned by the Du.MoD<br />Tomahawk missiles,US torpedoes and combat system likely,Harpoon likely, for dutch Exidsting assets commonalities<br />French drives and inverters , batteries, sensors, optronics, navigation, consoles (already in the SAAB proposal likely )<br /><br />For info Jeumont is now a sub of NG and Framatome(they are a critical supplier of back up in N plants).They were the pionneer in PM DC motors and drives (high speed train)and are also a key supplier of Alstohm (train ,metro , tram).Majors investments are made in Jeumont following the Nuclear "renaissance".They compete with Siemens WW<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-20076284337943136602024-03-16T05:11:48.765+11:002024-03-16T05:11:48.765+11:00To answer your question.
The curend government is...To answer your question.<br /><br />The curend government is a outgoing government with a minority backing.<br />Till the new government is formed and installed needs the current government a approval from parliament for basically everything. The D brief will be tabled over 2 weeks or so it is to the parment how it will proceed further.<br /><br /><br />KevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-58334499368564794682024-03-16T05:00:59.265+11:002024-03-16T05:00:59.265+11:00Hi Pete
We already got names for the new boats
&...Hi Pete<br /><br />We already got names for the new boats <br />'Orka'(Orca) 'Zwaardvis' (swordfish) 'Tijgerhaai' (tigershark) And 'Barracuda'<br /><br />The class is gonna be called 'Orkaklasse' (Orca Class)<br /><br /><br />https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Nederland-kiest-voor-Franse-boten-150324.html<br /><br /><br />KevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-61879119954537941312024-03-16T01:32:45.154+11:002024-03-16T01:32:45.154+11:00Last News :
A good article summarizing the program...Last News :<br />A good article summarizing the program situation and the selection of French shipyard Naval Group.<br />https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/15/the-netherlands-pick-france-s-naval-group-for-submarines-deal_6622270_143.html<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-91396295572799257082024-03-16T00:40:10.836+11:002024-03-16T00:40:10.836+11:00https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/03/the-n...https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/03/the-netherlands-select-naval-group-for-its-new-submarines/<br /><br />Looks like a very stealthy design. Maybe quieter than the German submarines? There is something to be said of having an SSN program from which you can backport tech to your SSK designs.<br /><br />Also from what I've seen this does not have an AIP. Seems like a large Li-ion battery sub more inline with what the Japanese are doing than the Korean KSS-III that other countries are looking at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-31507904886585262482024-03-15T10:54:25.497+11:002024-03-15T10:54:25.497+11:00Hi Locum at 3/15/2024 7:20 AM
The French advice y...Hi Locum at 3/15/2024 7:20 AM<br /><br />The French advice you've received might be confirmed by Dutch Government announcements in 10+ hours after the Dutch cabinet meets on this issue Friday Dutch time.<br /><br />Regards PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-13123784768570894902024-03-15T07:20:41.898+11:002024-03-15T07:20:41.898+11:00Walrus replacement derived from Shortfin Barracuda...Walrus replacement derived from Shortfin Barracuda.<br /><br />Pete, this was leaked by somebody in the Dutch navy. This source is reliable. Shortly afterwards, a well informed French source confirmed this. But added that the Attack class is not 97 meters long, but 94 m. The French source said that Naval Group spent at least a bit more than 2,5 years at the detailed engineering. Australia spent 2 billion euro for the Shortfin Barracuda research and development. This will give Naval Group an advantage in design costs and risks.<br />See also the comment of the anonyme French at 13 March 2024 Further reports Walrus replacement.<br /><br />The 3.000 tonnes SMX 3.0 is a concept submarine, like concept cars in the automotive industrie. And therefore is not offered.<br /><br />Goodday, Locum.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-21156764413633591622024-03-14T19:17:00.363+11:002024-03-14T19:17:00.363+11:00Thanks (likely French) Anonymous at 3/14/2024 6:50...Thanks (likely French) Anonymous at 3/14/2024 6:50 PM<br /><br />You have presented some good reasons why and how Naval Group had a head start on the Saab and TKMS opposition<br /><br />and could undercut them on price <br /><br />because NG had longer experience working out its modified Shortfin design solution.<br /><br />Perhaps only about 48 hours until we know who won!<br /><br />Cheers PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-73990257845120234302024-03-14T18:50:03.763+11:002024-03-14T18:50:03.763+11:00HI Pete
We will wait the final decision,but it loo...HI Pete<br />We will wait the final decision,but it looks real<br /><br />Close to 2 + billions USD has been spent by the Australian Gov. on the detailed, engineering , facilities,tooling , recruiting and training during the course of the "Australian Saga"up to the point where the go ahead for cutting steel was reached.CAD /CAM files, numerical model ect are done and could be altered with a few mouse click<br /><br />The whole supply chain, PM motors , inverter, Diessel Engine , sonars, console , optronics ..and their respective suppliers were, designed qualified and invested<br /><br />Naval Group for this job has at leat a 2/3year head start (and more than 1B USD for sure) and probablty is hihly "competitive" (cheaper in everyday parlance)<br />NG is partially owned by Thales and the Fr Gov..however it is quite profitable (6 to 7 % NPAT)and tough negociations with the Unions in Brest , Lorient .. resulted in a 4.7 % pay raise on average last week<br /><br />Higly subsidized, probably, but ..not by the Fr tax payer<br />*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-68494479856320124582024-03-14T17:33:21.870+11:002024-03-14T17:33:21.870+11:00Thanks retort Pouch at 3/14/2024 3:03 PM
I'm ...Thanks retort Pouch at 3/14/2024 3:03 PM<br /><br />I'm mainly puzzled why Taiwanese security doesn't seem to be permitting 90 degree on - whole hull length photos - something that could resolve the Hai Kun's "parent DNA".<br /><br />Cheers PetePete2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-65287271133666330842024-03-14T15:03:33.545+11:002024-03-14T15:03:33.545+11:00Time for me to procrastinate again.
Mitsubishi en...Time for me to procrastinate again.<br /><br />Mitsubishi engineers (Mitsubishi were specifically reported on) were involved in the transfer of hull construction technologies, especially welding technology for the large subsections. There isn't really a "more advanced" or "less advanced" thing going on - it's just the way it's done. This was originally reported on by Taiwanese defence journalists. The most significant US support came in the form of Lockheed Martin's systems integration work and supply of combat management systems. Again, this comes from Taiwanese defense journalists. <br /><br />Since modern Japanese subs and the ROCN's ex-Zwaardvis types both descend from the Barbels, so it is very hard to tell what the Hai Kun is based on. Certainly, they come from the same Barbel-ish family. retortPouchnoreply@blogger.com