tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post5335125901391652647..comments2024-03-28T21:57:32.099+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: UK Chooses the P-8 Poseidon as its New Maritime Patrol AircraftPete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-50059956087121078662016-05-02T14:56:13.890+10:002016-05-02T14:56:13.890+10:00Regarding the UK P-8 being refuelable- only by a b...Regarding the UK P-8 being refuelable- only by a boom refueler which the UK hasnt bought. Its A330s are trailing pod only.<br /><br />" The P-8A is also air-to-air refuelable from the boom of tanker aircraft such as the KC-30A, pushing its endurance out to over 20 hours – making it possible to patrol Australia’s isolated Southern Ocean territories.<br />http://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/Future-Acquisitions/Boeing-P8-A-Poseidon/?RAAF-Z4PUOpGXH/eLtWmc6qxYl9xYycb+rKng<br /><br />"AirTanker will provide the K Mk 2 (Airbus A330 variant) 'Voyager' aircraft as 2-point tankers, equipped with 2 FRL Mk32B 900E pods.<br />http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/equipment/kc30voyager.cfmZtev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-86964135304219703292015-11-26T00:09:59.759+11:002015-11-26T00:09:59.759+11:00Hi Anonymous [at Nov 25, 7:41AM]
On the UK's...Hi Anonymous [at Nov 25, 7:41AM] <br /><br />On the UK's P-8s not being selected by tender. If the UK Government decides not to hold a tender what higher authority need it answer to? Should UK government decisions be overly concerned about the litigious nature US companies sueing each other?<br /><br />Tenders are no guarantee of success or fairness. Australia used no tender to select the F/A-18 Super Hornet, C-17 and M1 Tank - all turned out to be a trouble free arriving on time and on budget. <br /><br />Meanwhile Australia had a rigourus tender which yielded the Collins and we know how that turned out.<br /><br />__________________________________________________________________________________________<br /><br />On all the links you have provided on aircraft sensors:<br /><br />Yes there are so many P-8 (and other MPA) sensors available and many more P-8s coming on stream to watch. <br /><br />Sensors seem to come in or out of style depending on the major threat and ability to miniaturise sensors. <br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-71519987272698553742015-11-25T23:33:23.415+11:002015-11-25T23:33:23.415+11:00Many more USN P-8s are being rotated to the Asia P...Many more USN P-8s are being rotated to the Asia Pacific theater.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-32739243917336281512015-11-25T16:12:24.644+11:002015-11-25T16:12:24.644+11:00"Re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_Ai..."Re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_Airborne_Sensor/Hyperspectrally the Littoral Airborne Sensor/Hyperspectral (LASH) imaging system developed by the US Navy looks particularly interesting."<br /><br /><br />LASH has been around for awhile now. Here are a couple of articles from 2003:<br /><br /><br />U.S. to test new sub-hunting technology in Sea of Japan:<br /><br />http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Aug/19/ln/ln23a.html<br /><br /><br />====================================<br /><br /><br />Old, New Technologies Come Together to Cast Large Shadow, Create Controversy:<br /><br />http://www.navlog.org/lash.html<br /><br />Quotes:<br /><br />"To date, LASH has spotted whales and submarines below the surface at sea and camouflaged simulated terrorist camps on land."<br /><br />LASH - It's not just for ASW! :)<br /><br /><br />"Also during the San Diego test, the Navy will try to launch and control a UAV from <br />the Skyship blimp. The UAV, being faster than the blimp itself, will be tested as a <br />platform for even more distributed sensors. This reporter inquired of Huettse about <br />blimp self-defense issues, and while no specifics could yet be released, “bag” <br />self-defense is reportedly being addressed."<br /><br />The Akron and Macon have been gone for many years. But the "flying aircraft carrier" concept lives on! :)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-8601479840042541412015-11-25T15:40:35.432+11:002015-11-25T15:40:35.432+11:00"Developed as a pod-mounted system, LASH can ..."Developed as a pod-mounted system, LASH can be operated from ASW platforms like P-3C Orions, SH-60B Seahawks and now P-8s."<br /><br /><br />Other pods for the P-8:<br /><br /><br />Navy to buy as many as 80 L-3 Wescam MX-20HD EO/IR sensor pods for P-8A maritime patrol jets:<br /><br />http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/08/electro-optical-sensors.html<br /><br /><br />===========================================<br /><br /><br />P-8 Poseidon Flies With Shadowy Radar System Attached:<br /><br />http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/exclusive-p-8-poseidon-flies-with-shadowy-radar-system-1562912667<br /><br />http://aviationweek.com/awin/boeing-assessing-effect-advanced-sensor-p-8-life<br /><br />http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-navys-p-8-poseidon-spotted-packing-mysterious-new-p-1718488424<br /><br /><br />===========================================<br /><br /><br />The Navy's P-8 Poseidon Spotted Packing Mysterious New Pod:<br /><br />http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-navys-p-8-poseidon-spotted-packing-mysterious-new-p-1718488424<br /><br /><br />===========================================<br /><br /><br />I wonder if the British will get any of these?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-86687890358439876192015-11-25T07:41:11.041+11:002015-11-25T07:41:11.041+11:00UK Chooses Boeing P-8 for MPA Without Competition:...UK Chooses Boeing P-8 for MPA Without Competition:<br /><br />"Boeing declined to answer questions from AIN about whether it had submitted a <br />firm, costed proposal for the P-8. The UK Ministry of Defence also did not want to <br />answer the same question. There has been speculation that Boeing or the U.S. <br />government has offered a leasing deal for P-8s, similar to that which enabled a <br />cash-strapped UK to acquire Boeing C-17 airlifters from 2001. After the scrapping <br />of the Royal Air Force’s new fleet of Nimrod MRA.4s in 2010, the service sent 20 <br />aircrew to fly on U.S. Navy P-8s at the invitation of the Pentagon.<br /> <br />Potential competitors for the UK MPA order would have included the ASW version of <br />the Airbus C295; the Lockheed Martin SC-130J Sea Hercules; and a conversion of the <br />Bombardier Q400 airliner offered by L-3 Com Mission Integration. A London-based <br />official from one of those companies expressed surprise that the MoD “had not <br />called for an open and transparent competition.” Officials from the other two also <br />expressed disappointment."<br /><br />See:<br /><br />http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2015-11-24/uk-chooses-boeing-p-8-mpa-without-competition<br /><br /><br />In the U.S., the losers would likely sue over the whole "non-competitive <br />procurement" issue.<br /><br />I wonder how the situation will handled in Britain?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-49803523307173259902015-11-24T19:40:44.719+11:002015-11-24T19:40:44.719+11:00Hi Anonymous [Nov 24, 2015, 3:10PM]
You say "...Hi Anonymous [Nov 24, 2015, 3:10PM]<br /><br />You say "Maybe Mr. Coates knows more?" <br /><br />Only what I read in the tea leaves.<br /><br />Re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_Airborne_Sensor/Hyperspectrally the Littoral Airborne Sensor/Hyperspectral (LASH) imaging system developed by the US Navy looks particularly interesting.<br /><br />It combines optical imaging hardware, navigation and stabilization, and advanced image processing and algorithms to provide real-time submarine target detection, classification, and identification in littoral waters. LASH collects imagery using many colors to exploit subtle color features associated with targets of interest. <br /><br />Developed as a pod-mounted system, LASH can be operated from ASW platforms like P-3C Orions, SH-60B Seahawks and now P-8s.<br /><br />It should be on the must-buy list of any serious ASW squadron.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-26491155107772651462015-11-24T15:10:52.182+11:002015-11-24T15:10:52.182+11:00"you've missed the most important part of..."you've missed the most important part of the sensor suite. AKA hydrocarbon Sensor for detecting diesel submarines. it was on the basis of this that the Mad sensor package was removed. Also USN has had issue regarding the integration of the Sensor to battle management/ Sensor suite. I don't know how effective it would be vs a nuclear submarine or in areas of high commercial activity say near straights and Harbor's<br />-Harish"<br /><br /><br />Diesel sniffing devices, such as Autolycus:<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus_%28submarine_detector%29<br /><br /><br />Used to be widely deployed, but were withdrawn for the reasons stated in the above link.<br /><br />If such sensors are making a comeback, it's probably because they have a new trick or 2 up their sleeves. For example Laser Radars (Lidars) are already used to detect chemical and biological contaminants at stand-off ranges:<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar#Military<br /><br />With Lidar tech like that, it might be possible to scan for a Diesel plume, and quickly trace it back to its source. <br /><br />Lidars like this might also be used to detect submarines more directly, as has been written about in this blog:<br /><br />http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/01/lidar-anti-submarine-warfare-sensor.html<br /><br />Note that the Soviets already deployed a system like this (called Amethyst) on the Bear-F Mod 4.<br /><br />In the U.S. a hyperspectral system called LASH (Littoral Airborne Sensor/Hyperspectral) has also been used:<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_Airborne_Sensor/Hyperspectral<br /><br /><br />So it wouldn't surprise me if the P-8 wasn't equipped with MAD because it had some type of Lidar/LASH setup installed. Though some people may be having second thoughts about this decision.<br /><br /><br />Maybe Mr. Coates knows more?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-55080224503275364252015-11-24T14:27:39.052+11:002015-11-24T14:27:39.052+11:00Hi MHalblaub and Harish
I don't have your kno...Hi MHalblaub and Harish<br /><br />I don't have your knowledge and certainty about the P-8. But yes it stands to reason - if the P-8 is mid-air refuelable it will be refueled every time - even for UK short sorties :)<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Pete Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-20445138333382180222015-11-24T14:23:08.796+11:002015-11-24T14:23:08.796+11:00Hi Nicky
Excellent research topic on the particul...Hi Nicky<br /><br />Excellent research topic on the particulars of the UK P-8.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-37678882196365541302015-11-24T14:20:32.399+11:002015-11-24T14:20:32.399+11:00Hi 2 Anonymouses [at November 23, 2015 8:26 PM and...Hi 2 Anonymouses [at November 23, 2015 8:26 PM and November 24, 2015 6:10 AM]<br /><br />Your anonymity and intelligent pointed questions would be worthy of a PLA-N shopping list.<br /><br />Am I right? <br /><br />:)<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-89945548516294949382015-11-24T08:32:48.303+11:002015-11-24T08:32:48.303+11:00Hi Pete,
you've missed the most important part...Hi Pete,<br />you've missed the most important part of the sensor suite. AKA hydrocarbon Sensor for detecting diesel submarines. it was on the basis of this that the Mad sensor package was removed. Also USN has had issue regarding the integration of the Sensor to battle management/ Sensor suite. I don't know how effective it would be vs a nuclear submarine or in areas of high commercial activity say near straights and Harbor's<br />-HarishAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-79508582108752659202015-11-24T07:20:01.362+11:002015-11-24T07:20:01.362+11:00The P-8 and the P-3 have about the same range but ...The P-8 and the P-3 have about the same range but the P-8 is much faster. The P-3 needs about 30% more time for the same distance. In other words, the new P-8 offers less time on station than the old P-3. <br /><br />The P-8 is refuelable. So you need a tanker aircraft. Why not use the tanker aircraft you already have for such a mission? More range more space and not a one trick pony.MHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-25437446737606026482015-11-24T06:10:59.994+11:002015-11-24T06:10:59.994+11:00"Generally 1 or 2 MPA might be quietly kitted..."Generally 1 or 2 MPA might be quietly kitted with, or retrofitted with, ELINT."<br /><br /><br />I wonder if the British will do that, since they're already getting the "Rivet <br />Joint" ELINT aircraft:<br /><br />http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/rc135wrivetjoint.cfm<br /><br /><br />Since the Australians are also getting the Triton UAV to go with their P-8s:<br /><br />http://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/Aircraft/MQ-4C-Triton-Unmanned-Aircraft-System/?RAAF-BYjCaU6eHptQ3E2EiHw9jKOLJvauES8Y<br /><br />I wonder if the British will do likewise?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18549299923974590682015-11-24T01:05:32.134+11:002015-11-24T01:05:32.134+11:00HI Pete,
So for the Boeing P-8 Poseidon, what vers...HI Pete,<br />So for the Boeing P-8 Poseidon, what version is the British looking at getting, the American, Australian or Indian version.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-64392091356533509122015-11-23T20:26:03.378+11:002015-11-23T20:26:03.378+11:00The British can either go MAD-less, or they can ca...The British can either go MAD-less, or they can carry an onboard MAD like the Indian variant of the P-8.<br /><br />Or they can buy the expendable MAD drone being developed by BAE:<br /><br />http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html<br /><br /><br />I wonder which option they'll pick?<br /><br />Will the "Flying Torpedo" kit:<br /><br />http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2013/04/Boeing-flying-torpedo.html<br /><br />be adapted to carry Stingray torpedoes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-67812850725708150182015-11-23T17:05:23.432+11:002015-11-23T17:05:23.432+11:00Hi ONeil Padilla
Further confirmation the UK is b...Hi ONeil Padilla<br /><br />Further confirmation the UK is buying the P-8 comes from the BBC http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34897076 :<br /><br />"In Monday's [Strategic Defence and Security Review speech in the Commons] Mr Cameron will announce:<br />...Nine new Boeing P8 maritime patrol aircraft, filling a gap left by the highly-criticised decision in the last review in 2010 to scrap a new generation of Nimrod aircraft."<br /><br />I don't know if the Brits are MAD.<br /><br />Generally 1 or 2 MPA might be quietly kitted with, or retrofitted with, ELINT.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-53730428585021658242015-11-23T16:50:18.402+11:002015-11-23T16:50:18.402+11:00Hi Pete,
Really? I thought the Brits borked at th...Hi Pete,<br /><br />Really? I thought the Brits borked at the price and was going to throw it out to tender ASAP.<br />Oh well it seems they are paying the price for ditching the Nimrods without replacement.<br />I thought the P1 was a better plane and Cheaper but I don't think it could compete with the economies of scale and standardising equipment with allies.<br /><br />Will the British version have a MAD? because I know the American crews really miss it and the Indians insisted on having one on their version. Sadly none for the Aussie version.<br /><br />PS - Your right about being a good buy and let's hope they take up the four options, perhaps we'll purchase an extra four on top of the 12 and kit them out for SIGINT or ELINT. (oh one can dream I guess, sigh)<br /><br />ONeil<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01647646945803452501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-36763244505211001972015-11-23T13:17:08.195+11:002015-11-23T13:17:08.195+11:00Hi Nicky
Yes Australia is also buying P-8s. The A...Hi Nicky<br /><br />Yes Australia is also buying P-8s. The Australian "Air Force will acquire eight P-8As, with the option for a further four subject to the outcomes of the [2016] Defence White Paper review. The first aircraft will be delivered in 2017, with all eight aircraft fully operational by 2021."<br />http://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/Future-Acquisitions/Boeing-P8-A-Poseidon/?RAAF-Z4PUOpGXH/eLtWmc6qxYl9xYycb+rKng<br /><br />Unlike Australia purchasing the F-35s the purchase of P-8s will be a good buy.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-75233781227609462622015-11-23T12:54:23.791+11:002015-11-23T12:54:23.791+11:00Hi Pete,
Isn't the RAAF getting the Boeing P-8...Hi Pete,<br />Isn't the RAAF getting the Boeing P-8 Poseidon as well. Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.com