tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post3642502447230145091..comments2024-03-28T19:53:20.694+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Inside the Soryu Submarine: Rare Diagram, Photos, Video and Translations.Pete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-8945220304398923712016-03-29T17:13:30.376+11:002016-03-29T17:13:30.376+11:00Thanks Supernova (from Full Frame)
I've chang...Thanks Supernova (from Full Frame)<br /><br />I've changed the text and hereby made Zuiryu Dragon "Auspicious"<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-85327629231491601562016-03-29T16:11:09.248+11:002016-03-29T16:11:09.248+11:00Hi Pete,
Very rare and interesting video of the S...Hi Pete,<br /><br />Very rare and interesting video of the Soryu indeed, and good work on the translation! The featured sub SS-505 Zuiryu 瑞竜 is the "Auspicious Dragon". The " Sword Dragon " is the preceeding boat SS-504 Kenryu 剣竜.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Supernova / Full FrameSupernovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00864419524992223122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-79159441283700707612016-03-16T01:02:06.333+11:002016-03-16T01:02:06.333+11:00Hi S [at 15/3/16 9:27 PM]
Thanks for Toru Sato...Hi S [at 15/3/16 9:27 PM]<br /><br />Thanks for Toru Sato's article. <br /><br />I will base an article on it tommorow (Wednesday)<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete<br /><br />Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-86273956370611082402016-03-15T21:27:37.836+11:002016-03-15T21:27:37.836+11:00Hi Pete
I will introduce the said paper as follow...Hi Pete<br /><br />I will introduce the said paper as follows. <br />------<br />Title<br />History of submarine in our country - stronger, longer, more silent -<br /><br />Author<br />Toru Sato (Department of Naval Systems Development, Technical Research and Development Institute, of Ministry of Defense: <br /><br />Feature<br />The history of submarine built after WWII in our country will be reviewed from a technical standpoint.<br /><br />Abstract<br />JMSDF has built about 50 submarines from the first Oyashio-class which was first domestic submarine to latest Soryu-class.<br />In even just hull form, from 1956 to1966, the first Oyasho-, Hayashio- and Ohshio-class, which were underwater cruising-oriented submarines based on the pre WWII hull form, were built. From 1967, Uzushio-, Yushio-and Harushio-class with tear drop shaped hull, which were underwater speed-oriented, were continuously built. From 1993 to present (2012), cigar shaped hull with partial single hull structure was adopted.<br /><br />All that time, various technical evolutions have been experienced, i.e., increase in submerged depth by improvement of steel, welding technology and others; improvement of battery performance; extension of submerged period by equipment of AIP and others; equipment of TASS and flank array sonar; improvement of sonar search and detection attack abilities by increase in processing speed; reduction of underwater radiation noise by reduction of equipments and adoption of damping alloy and material.<br /><br />Our submarines have continuously evolved depending on the operation aspects, considering request of operators and taking in latest technology. If we express the directions of the evolution, they will be “stronger”, “longer” and “more silent”.<br /><br />On that day, from a technical standpoint, all submarines of JMSDF will be visually introduced.<br />------<br /><br />Many people think short commission period of Japanese submarine is due to its short life time caused by degradation, fatigue, corrosion, and so on. But they are perfectly wrong, the short commission period results from require for continuous evolution. From standpoint of material science and design, designing and building of the weak structure which regularly degrades within defined period are much more difficult than those of the strong structure. In the former structure, perfect control and insight of key elements including prediction of future warfare, which are extremely difficult, is needed. As Japan unfortunately has not such high technology and insight, it can only build the strong structure.<br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-62269776746885673512016-03-15T17:39:43.098+11:002016-03-15T17:39:43.098+11:00Hi S
Thanks for http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/resear...Hi S<br /><br />Thanks for http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/dts2012/R2-2p.pdf . I used a free online PDF to HTML converter. Then right click mouse "Translate to English". Still a mixture of pictures and Japanese langauge but more English than before.<br /><br />Actually there is a similar (but fully English) graph at the beginning of http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/history-of-japanese-submarine-after-wwii.html with date, name and tonnage of all post WW2 Japanese submarines. Then much more data and photos further down in that multi-page length Submarine Matters article.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-63938101537092426012016-03-15T12:45:16.745+11:002016-03-15T12:45:16.745+11:00Hi Pete
Four years ago, MOD introduced history of...Hi Pete<br /><br />Four years ago, MOD introduced history of Japanese submarine after the world war II in its annual symposium [1]. MOD showed that Japanese submarines had been experienced continuous improvement for three directions, i.e., “Stronger”, “Longer”, “More Silent”. The designing considerations for Soryu were listed as follows:<br /><br />”Longer”<br />Power & propulsion: second battery, AIP, generator<br />Environment: air cleaning, living accommodation<br /><br />“More silent”<br />Stealth: reduction of underwater radiation noise, acoustic stealth, radar stealth, magnetic stealth<br />Configuration & equipment: noise reduction, vibration control supporting, propeller<br /><br />“Stronger”<br />Systemization: weapon control, submarine control<br />Underwater weapon: sonar, torpedo tube, periscope<br />Navigation communication: navigation device, communication device, information communication.<br />Motion performance: rudder, various tanks, propeller<br /><br />[1] http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/dts2012/R2-2p.pdf (Japanese) “History of submarine in our country –stronger, longer, more silent-“ Defense Technology Symposium 2012 by MOD. This short pater is interesting, but, we can find only figures and picture in web.<br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18181606289889986222016-03-14T23:23:16.423+11:002016-03-14T23:23:16.423+11:00Correction
I do not think US well come French subm...Correction<br />I do not think US well come French submarine--- > I do not think US welcome French submarine <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-4175308803818902562016-03-14T23:17:02.313+11:002016-03-14T23:17:02.313+11:00Hi Pete
Just few hours ago, REUTERS JPN (14/Mar/2...Hi Pete<br /><br />Just few hours ago, REUTERS JPN (14/Mar/2016) reported that France sent the biggest delegation of companies to Canberra in twenty year. The delegation will reach the Capital tomorrow. According to REUTERS JPN, it had reported Germany losing support in this January, because of high risk by growth in size. <br /><br />I appreciate German submarine, and I do not think it is bad. Perhaps, the CEP experts have different idea or secret information which we do not perceive. And REUTERS does not always provide right information.<br /><br />I do not think US well come French submarine. Anyway CEP will show the conclusion in this year. <br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-35369324204286449232016-03-13T08:18:32.468+11:002016-03-13T08:18:32.468+11:00Our friend from Germany claims that the Sterling e...Our friend from Germany claims that the Sterling engine is as loud as a diesel engine. I don't know where he got that idea from.<br />The reason you want to avoid to snorkelling isn't just because you will be close to the surface but mainly you would have to use the very loud diesel engines. Running around in the depths with loud AIP engines would be totally useless.<br /><br />You can check the noise level for example in this documentary (4 parts in Youtube) about Swedish subs from the late 80s/early 90s. Even though the video it self has problems with the sound level, you can check for example around 5:40, from a test rig at Kockums. <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4jgCXs3Mhw<br /><br />Another, newer example, you can find in the end of the video in this article.<br />http://www.svd.se/fakta-klarar-tva-veckor-i-undervattenslage/om/svenska-ubatsprogrammet<br /><br />/CAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-85590799299409382016-03-12T17:46:17.901+11:002016-03-12T17:46:17.901+11:00Hi Pete
Thank you for your consideration
Regardss
...Hi Pete<br />Thank you for your consideration<br />Regardss<br />SAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-48718964141164441512016-03-12T17:06:45.726+11:002016-03-12T17:06:45.726+11:00Hi S and Wispywood2344
I remember the 2011 Tōhoku...Hi S and Wispywood2344<br /><br />I remember the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and Tsunami which killed more than 18,000 Japanese people - just over five years ago. <br /><br />A terrible thing to happen.<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-46213835126591707862016-03-12T11:18:08.271+11:002016-03-12T11:18:08.271+11:00Hi Pete, MHalblaub and other people
I am awfully ...Hi Pete, MHalblaub and other people<br /><br />I am awfully sorry. I found official evidence [1] that floating deck was adopted for AIP section of Soryu. So I correct comment (10/3/16 10:03 PM) as follows.<br /><br />Before correction.<br />The noise of AIP is louder than I expected, and it may become finger print. Because of its low power, noise and complex maneuver, abolishment of AIP is right decision. Combination of quicker charging by new snorkel generation system and higher energy density of LIBs provides better submerging performance such as longer silent running period and higher submerging speed. JMSDF should have abolished AIP and adopted LIBs few years ago.<br /><br />After correction<br />The noise of AIP is lower than talking, but is louder than I expected. The floating deck is adopted for the AIP sections in Soryu, and isolates effectively vibration of AIP from hull. Because of its low power and complex maneuver, abolishment of AIP is right decision. The new snorkel generation system is expected to have improved performance such as quicker charging and lower noise/vibration. Combination of the improved performance of the new snorkel generation system and higher energy density of LIBs provides better submerging performance such as longer silent running period and higher submerging speed. JMSDF should have abolished AIP and adopted LIBs few years ago.<br /><br />Again sorry<br /><br />[1] “The history of our submarine-stronger, longer time, more quiet-” by JMSDF<br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-56206990478939770802016-03-11T11:05:04.732+11:002016-03-11T11:05:04.732+11:00P.S. Hi MHalblaub
Here's one of my large UUVs...P.S. Hi MHalblaub<br /><br />Here's one of my large UUVs <br /><br />"The 51-foot Echo Voyager requires no on-board crew, and can operate autonomously for months at a time, thanks to a hybrid rechargeable power system. Photo courtesy Boeing"<br /><br /> at http://www.seattlepi.com/local/science/article/Boeing-rolls-out-new-unmanned-autonomous-6882408.php<br /><br />Just imagine how advanced and more operationally capable UUVs will be in 10 years time for the critical and probably much more frequent intelligence gathering function. Submarine crews lives will be saved - as they won't be risked travelling too close to advanced military powers.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-75061457597932858562016-03-11T10:50:20.738+11:002016-03-11T10:50:20.738+11:00Hi MHalblaub [at 11/3/16 5:45 AM]
Yes very recent...Hi MHalblaub [at 11/3/16 5:45 AM]<br /><br />Yes very recent Youtubes of 212s, Dolphins or the latest 209s (where there is no English commentary or English subtitles) may be worthwhile translating.<br /><br />https://youtu.be/u8QKbeS-flM is very good though. It shows what the latest AIP - the German fuel cell - can do.<br /><br />To meet the increased needs for Australian submarine discretion having LIBs and also the latest AIP may be vital. As you say Stirling and MESMA AIP may be too noisy and may suffer the maintenance risks inherent in having moving parts.<br /><br />Australian subs on LIBs (maybe only capable of 2 weeks submerged) might be sunk if they need to snort in the South China Sea (SCS), This is because China is building up fixed and mobile ASW sensors in that Sea. <br /><br />Snorting in the SCS may be increasingly risky for Australia's extra-ordinarily large Collins and future submarines.<br /><br />What about:<br /><br />- 12 x 210s (with lower torpedo armament to pack in more intelligence gathering capability) and<br /><br />- 12 large UUVs (launched/shipped/air-dropped/or 210 towed) from norther Australia?<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-44078058226743498182016-03-11T05:45:31.679+11:002016-03-11T05:45:31.679+11:00Dear Pete,
I noticed some small things.
At 6:29 ...Dear Pete,<br /><br />I noticed some small things.<br /><br />At 6:29 about the rudder controls. The helmsman is always at the control stick. On a German video about the Type 212 the helmsman's answer was about how the submarine is steered: "The computer does it. I set the bearing and the computer does the rest. The stick is in case the computer does not work."<br /><br />Most interesting part is the answer by the captain at 9:41.<br /><br />Here is a noise comparison between an running diesel on a Type 212A and the fuel cell AIP starting at 2:30.<br />https://youtu.be/u8QKbeS-flM (The movie is in English but bad quality)<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaub<br /><br />P.S. Maybe I'll find some interesting video about Type 212 in German worthwhile to translate a bit. MHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-28938052953183436452016-03-11T01:10:15.819+11:002016-03-11T01:10:15.819+11:00Dear S,
There are other AIPs that have nearly no m...Dear S,<br />There are other AIPs that have nearly no moving parts and therefore are not noisy at all. A fuel cell just needs small fuel pumps. A sterling engine just like the MESMA concept is as loud as a normal engine with equivalent power.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-35358723317261774152016-03-10T22:03:51.169+11:002016-03-10T22:03:51.169+11:00Hi Pete
The noise of AIP is louder than I expecte...Hi Pete<br /><br />The noise of AIP is louder than I expected, and it may become finger print. Because of its low power, noise and complex maneuver, abolishment of AIP is right decision. Combination of quicker charging by new snorkel generation system and higher energy density of LIBs provides better submerging performance such as longer silent running period and higher submerging speed. JMSDF should have abolished AIP and adopted LIBs few years ago.<br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-33167049632401819742016-03-10T17:13:08.667+11:002016-03-10T17:13:08.667+11:00Hi Ztev
It is unclear but this may be Australia&#...Hi Ztev<br /><br />It is unclear but this may be Australia's de facto leadership regarding the Future Submarine http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/significance-of-another-american.html . The Americans have much more experience running successful submarine programs (Virginias, Los Angeles, Ohios also Seawolfs (though the Soviet collapse curtailed the Seawolf Program)) than us Aussies or Brits.<br /><br />Greg Sammut http://www.defence.gov.au/casg/Multimedia/RADM_Gregory_Sammut_bio_Accessible-9-7319.pdf is a former submarine commander and may be Australia's senior submariner. He is also involved with the future sub.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-91181308323435954732016-03-10T15:48:46.170+11:002016-03-10T15:48:46.170+11:00Just another comment about RADM Moffit, according...Just another comment about RADM Moffit, according to his his naval bio, hes a destroyer guy and isnt really a submarine expert at all.<br />http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/rear-admiral-rowan-carlisle-moffitt<br />He seems to have had an outstanding naval career and retired from active service as Deputy chief of navy.<br /><br />I would think his particular expertise for the Sub program was in management rather that submarine operations.<br />The US and British navy had no shortage of submariners reaching the very top ( eg current US CNO is a sub expert) but has the RAN had the same career path for its sub officers. Or is that another one of the side effects of the Collins 'fragility', very capable men stay well clear . <br />Ive just looked at the current leadership group who are RADM or higher, and engineering, mine clearance, aviation as well as surface ships are all represented. No submariners ? Looking back to the period of the Oberons were in service, none have made Chief of navy even though subs have been a large part of the fleet.<br />the CWO of the navy started as a submariner.Ztev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18744376883665038122016-03-10T12:25:35.389+11:002016-03-10T12:25:35.389+11:00Hi Wispywood2344 [at 10/3/16 12:19AM]
Thanks for ...Hi Wispywood2344 [at 10/3/16 12:19AM]<br /><br />Thanks for http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/Soryu_Control_Room.png<br /><br />I'll use that in the Sub Matters article.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete<br />Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-83736551378483919032016-03-10T12:08:49.909+11:002016-03-10T12:08:49.909+11:00Hi Ztev
Yes they should have had the Admiral pres...Hi Ztev<br /><br />Yes they should have had the Admiral presenting all the way through, without the jumps to Ludlam.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-4462121096669412122016-03-10T01:34:03.694+11:002016-03-10T01:34:03.694+11:00Interesting comment at the end in the Australian ...Interesting comment at the end in the Australian section - which confusingly jumps from inside a Collins during refit<br />to the shipyard welding for an AAW destroyer- that none of the Collins problems resulted from Australian workmanship. Which is true in the sense the original combat system software, written by Australians, is no longer used, and was recognized as unusable.Ztev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-71815508901445448062016-03-10T00:19:44.325+11:002016-03-10T00:19:44.325+11:00Hi pete.
I've got a schematic diagram of Sory...Hi pete.<br /><br />I've got a schematic diagram of Soryus' control room, and added some annotations in it.<br />http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/others/Soryu_Control_Room.png<br /><br />Just for your information.<br /><br />Regards<br />Wispywood2344<br /><br />Wispywood2344http://blog.livedoor.jp/wispywood2344/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-13863776841000212722016-03-09T22:52:48.071+11:002016-03-09T22:52:48.071+11:00Thanks Anonymous.
I've altered the text accor...Thanks Anonymous.<br /><br />I've altered the text accordingly.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-26796329038015989132016-03-09T21:19:53.124+11:002016-03-09T21:19:53.124+11:00Hi Pete
7:00-7:25 We can film AIP, -- > We can...Hi Pete<br /><br />7:00-7:25 We can film AIP, -- > We cannot film AIP,<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com