tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post2985359553601363859..comments2024-03-28T21:57:32.099+11:00Comments on Submarine Matters & Australian Nuclear Weapons: Naval Group (was DCNS) wins Australia's Future Submarine contest - Youtubes, Diagrams, Picture, Anthem.Pete2http://www.blogger.com/profile/06134037393078707072noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-6876759827388915682016-04-29T22:11:24.811+10:002016-04-29T22:11:24.811+10:00Hi Dave W
Yes DCNS has much completing to do to m...Hi Dave W<br /><br />Yes DCNS has much completing to do to make the Shortfin an unusually large SSK (engines, fuel and seawater tanks for buoyancy, etc).<br /><br />Russian and Chinese advised North Vietnam springs to mind as a country potentially unforgiving to curious O boats through to the late 1970s.<br /><br />The Table of 3 of the Scorpene buyers (specifically Chile, India and Brazil) here http://gemabersuara.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/fakta-sebenar-scorpene-malaysia.html reveals that their Scorpenes were fitted with MTU engines (probably 396s). Also France's FREMM Frigates use MTUs - so MTU via DCNS has a good chance of being the Shortfin's supplier.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-37275240596957603422016-04-28T23:01:41.101+10:002016-04-28T23:01:41.101+10:00Hi Pete,
Yes correct on the first bit.
And yes th...Hi Pete,<br />Yes correct on the first bit.<br /><br />And yes the Collins suffered a litany of issues involving the propulsion and many other systems. However it will not be lost on the RAN that a previous French designed diesel had not insignificant issues. I think it erroneous to assume that the lessons learned from Collins won't be applied to the Barracuda, which really is an incomplete concept design at this point.<br /><br />Regarding the Oberon transits, let me state they played a hard game entering the waters of many not so friendly countries who to this day would not know the O boats were ever there. They didn't make lots of long surface transits playing this ISR game,to do could have cost them their lives. US WW11 surface transits are a different thing, they weren't faced with the same array of detection measures today's submarines must avoid.<br /><br />I do think it's premature to write off diesels at this point when they have worked very well in the past, Collins issues aside. In my opinion Collins was an orphan class we should never have picked but the politics of South Australian jobs and votes negated common sense. A diesel boat on batteries with a stealthy hull will be a very formidable platform. <br /><br />It would be a bonus if the MTU was picked add they are a superbly reliable bit of kit but even so they will only be as good as the maintenance they receive. For now we shall simply have to wait and see when the design is finalized.<br /><br />Cheers DDave Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12477700847470714144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-14710762770666015012016-04-28T16:21:04.288+10:002016-04-28T16:21:04.288+10:00Hi KQN [28/4/16 5:28 AM]
Perhaps first I'll w...Hi KQN [28/4/16 5:28 AM]<br /><br />Perhaps first I'll write about the pumpjet propulsion for Shortfin issue - building on your comments made in https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19245896&postID=3070342239950420359<br /><br />The diesel engine issue is so broad I'll write about diesel next week.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-64240076836938385772016-04-28T16:06:53.976+10:002016-04-28T16:06:53.976+10:00Hi Hardcash [27/4/16 6:19 PM]
Yes DCNS ability to...Hi Hardcash [27/4/16 6:19 PM]<br /><br />Yes DCNS ability to offer Shortfins and SSNs would not have gone unnoticed. The 2016 DWP process did imply the option of Australia buying a batch (maybe 6) (as it turns out Shortfin SSKs) then more thinking (in the 2040s?) about another batch of possibly different subs.<br /><br />Also the Virginia SSNs are semi-designed for narrow restricted movement and have diver delivery vehicles and UUVs. An Australian intention to buy 6 Barracuda SSNs might be countered by a US offer on better terms to sell 4 to 6 Virginia's in the 2040s. We'll see.<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-35250083254646815442016-04-28T15:55:56.912+10:002016-04-28T15:55:56.912+10:00H S [at 27/4/16 5:40 PM]
Thankyou for your views....H S [at 27/4/16 5:40 PM]<br /><br />Thankyou for your views.<br /><br />I think the problems for Japan started in 2014 when Abbott offered to buy the Soryu without Abbott bothering to go through the long, complex, defence equipment buying procedures. Abbott told Abe the purchase would be quick and easy.<br /><br />This is like Abbott's quick plans for Australia to fight alone in Iraq and Australia sending 1,000 Army men to the Ukraine - presumably to fight off Russian made tanks.<br /><br />Abbotts desire for an alliance with Japan was not (is not) shared by most Australian defence, foreign policy officials or by most politicians.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-69122647544345546052016-04-28T15:45:01.629+10:002016-04-28T15:45:01.629+10:00Hi Dave W [sound like a navy man?]
So do you reco...Hi Dave W [sound like a navy man?]<br /><br />So do you recognise that the Collins suffered/suffer from unreliable engines (which just happen to be French) and history (with country of origin) may repeat itself?<br /><br />Less problematic transits of Oberons (1970-2000) and in WW2, US fleet boats, may be due to their transiting on the surface.<br /><br />Will MTU 4000s save the Shortfins?<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-3604429572511710922016-04-28T10:51:23.011+10:002016-04-28T10:51:23.011+10:00I think you are barking up the wrong tree talking ...I think you are barking up the wrong tree talking in generality about diesels wearing out from long patrol transits. You do realize the predecessor to the Collins, our beloved diesel powered Oberons made numerous such journey's constantly over the course of their operational life? There wasn't even a murmur of issues with the O boats engines.<br /><br />A lesson from the wise, the diesel component of a submarines propulsion system only runs when snorting to charge the batteries. It would be prudent to presume that the same will apply here otherwise the silent service is going to be a whole lot less silent.Dave Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12477700847470714144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-65215295007662000562016-04-28T05:28:59.290+10:002016-04-28T05:28:59.290+10:00I do not know now but up until a few years ago, yo...I do not know now but up until a few years ago, you can see MTU Series 4000 being manufactured in Detroit Diesel plants (that were originally GM plants) in Michigan and South Carolina.<br />The 1st technical cooperation between Daimler and Detroit Diesel came about because in 1987, DD introduces the 1st diesel engine with electronic control DDEC and in 1991, Daimler hired DD to design electronic controls for its Series 60 engines (today there are more than 1M series 60 engines in the world). This partnership between the 2 companies developed further with the joint introduction of the Series 2000, the design team being led by DD, and then the series 4000. Like the 2 strokes DD series 71, the series 4000 have engines that run well past 20000 hours. Besides the design factor, a key point for engine longevity is the maintenance schedule which must be strictly followed. You skip, you will pay sooner and don't complain after.<br />I believe today even after the RR acquisition of MTU for off road applications like marine, mining, petroleum (gensets), Daimler still keeps the on road business, Daimler still supplies to RR the smaller diesel engines for marine applications.<br />Although I agree that the majority of Detroit Diesel is with on road, trucks (some 75% of the business came from that), if you look at marine survey of yachts (up to 150 feet) in 1995-2005, 3 manufacturers dominate the pleasure craft marine business, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar and Cummins in that order. A lot of hauling trucks use the Series 4000, even multiple of them, just as yachts. Hauling trucks' operating cycles put tremendous stresses on any diesel engine.<br />KQNAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-5475261939339292712016-04-27T18:19:02.921+10:002016-04-27T18:19:02.921+10:00Choosing DCNS flags to me that Aus is thinking nuk...Choosing DCNS flags to me that Aus is thinking nukes for the future, the switch from shortfin to full barracuda is easy once national understanding of the requirement is digested. Note how the Govt made a virtue of "regionally superior"?? No conventional can ever be superior, this we know, thus the subs will have to advance to the next level (ie nuclear) if they are ever going to deliver the promised superiority - perfect politics! <br /><br />SA is already looking at nuclear disposal/energy to replace lost jobs, whereupon Defence could source the expertise to sustain a nuke fleet - the single reason they claim they cannot at present! Navy must be able to maintain their own boats, the problem is not having a sovereign capability, not political unpalatability as many mistakenly believe. <br /><br />The Barracuda will give Aus a sub that is still small enough to be agile in shallow Asian water but with the speed, patrolling endurance, stealth and sensory capability of a nuke - the perfect combination for Navy's requirements!<br /><br />10/15 years till the boats hit the water, that's enough time if we hurry....<br /><br />HardcashAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-23101421818553560692016-04-27T17:40:28.630+10:002016-04-27T17:40:28.630+10:00Hi Pete
Underlying cause of failure in this subma...Hi Pete<br /><br />Underlying cause of failure in this submarine deal is that Japan tried to sell what she could not sell. Submarine is a key defense measure in Japan, and we cannot easily share this technology with others. If enemy gets this technology, all the boats of JMSDF will be exposed to risk. The information protection on submarine directly affects defense of Japan. These facts caused implicit or explicit hesitation in selling submarine to bring failure of the submarine deal. For European builders, the submarine deal is just business, and they search request of customer and behave to achieve maximum customer satisfaction. But, for Japan it is beyond business. Japan must think security and the submarine business at the same time, these resulted in hesitation and delay or confusion of judgement.<br /><br />Everything began from misunderstanding. Japan conducted “Three Principles on Arms Exports relaxation” in 2011, but Japan did not set exclusion items including submarine of exports. Japan did not expect the submarine technology transfer at all, because the submarine technology is so important. But, Australian government, who conversionary gave up the Japanese submarine technology by “Three Principles on Arms Exports”, requested submarine technology transfer and made Japanese government panic.<br /><br />RAN thought Japanese submarine has somewhat similar features because Japan is also island country. But, features of Japanese submarine were resemble to those of smaller European submarines because of exclusively defensive posture. RAN also appreciated Stiring AIP and large size of submarine, but, JMSDF did not appreciate them. Stirling AIP and large size provided complex operation and being detected-ness, respectively.<br /><br />Regards<br />S<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-31869895084950519882016-04-27T16:46:41.707+10:002016-04-27T16:46:41.707+10:00Thanks Nicky
1. "So when do you think Austra...Thanks Nicky<br /><br />1. "So when do you think Australia will get the Shortfin Barracuda and what will they do with the Collins."<br /><br />Highly political and technical issue. I could write a Brief but it would cost you.<br /><br />2. "Will they sell the Collins to the Philippines?"<br /><br />Highly unlikely as it would mean re-exporting highly sensitive Swedish hull and also US combat system technology (US wouldn't allow it) and sustainment is a huge cost for the Collins.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-81286132501426258102016-04-27T16:37:59.648+10:002016-04-27T16:37:59.648+10:00Hi Shantanu kumar
On solution for India's Pro...Hi Shantanu kumar<br /><br />On solution for India's Project P-75I. In brief:<br /><br />- more Scorpenes but this time with a DCNS-DRDO developed second generation AIP<br />- TKMS Type 214 with its existing AIP or methanol reformer fuel cell AIP<br />- outside pick, not yet developed Saab-Kockums A26 with improved Stirling AIP<br />- Russians have no proven developed AIP for Kilos, Amurs or Kalinas<br /><br />Probably unlikely Japan would offer current spec or advanced Soryu as India is demonstrably too close to Russia on advanced sub issues, typified by the INS Chakra lease and Russian help for Arihant's reactor. Japan very security conscious - needs to develop lower spec for customers sales strategy. <br /> <br />On "Barracuda SSK" (real chance a Russian-Indian reactor would make it an SSN). Chance of leak of Barracuda/Triomphant stealth technology through to Russia. <br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-27956198407725659252016-04-27T16:18:26.348+10:002016-04-27T16:18:26.348+10:00Hi KQN, MHalblaub, Ztev and Anonymous(27/4/16 10:1...Hi KQN, MHalblaub, Ztev and Anonymous(27/4/16 10:15 AM)<br /><br />Your comments on diesel engine are very useful.<br /><br />I'll write an article this week on the Collin's like main problem and the Shortfin's most pressing need - which is for highly reliable diesel engines. <br /><br />Claimed future transit range-speed of 10,000-18,000+ nautical miles (nm) at 10-14 knots looks impressive but if one of 4 to 6 diesel engines breakdown 100 nm out of Fleet Base East impressiveness doesn't count. <br /><br />Now to find the latest and most specific claimed specification for the Shortfin. <br /><br />I'd be grateful for suggestions for the best links in this quest.<br /><br />Regards Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-47561032310701582262016-04-27T15:31:41.090+10:002016-04-27T15:31:41.090+10:00An excellent article is
The Diplomat's, Apri...An excellent article is <br /><br />The Diplomat's, April 27, 2016, "Why Japan Lost the Bid to Build Australia’s New Subs" [paywalled] http://thediplomat.com/2016/04/why-japan-lost-the-bid-to-build-australias-new-subs/Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-25008963064042752432016-04-27T12:14:58.843+10:002016-04-27T12:14:58.843+10:00Hi Pete,
Congrats on the Sub Deal with France. So ...Hi Pete,<br />Congrats on the Sub Deal with France. So when do you think Australia will get the Shortfin Barracuda and what will they do with the Collins. Will they sell the Collins to the Philippines?Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-20676143114657720692016-04-27T10:15:43.757+10:002016-04-27T10:15:43.757+10:00I hope we include the MTU engine as the best of br...I hope we include the MTU engine as the best of breed - we wouldn't be the first DCNS customer to request an MTU. I also think we should investigate funding Siemens to complete upsizing the Permasyn motor and producing a prototype. <br />If Japan is interested, I would also hope we consider their LIBs, as they will be the first to utilise them in a submarine, if they can be convinced their IP will be protected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-52472066388712450602016-04-27T08:19:30.881+10:002016-04-27T08:19:30.881+10:00Regarding diesels, the French company SEMT Pielst...Regarding diesels, the French company SEMT Pielstick is now owned fully by MAN the german company ( it was until recently a MAN-MTU partnership). MTU is now owned by Rolls Royce.<br /><br />The reason for most naval diesels being from MAN or MTU or licensed, is because the major developments are patented by those who were licensed to use the original Rudolf Diesel patents ( now expired) eh the Danish firm B&W, now owned by MAN.<br />The bigger licensees eg Kawasaki in Japan, can and do their own development and improvements for their specialist engines. Some like Detroit Diesel work mainly for truck applications. <br /><br />The new RAN subs may have their diesels built in France but I'll guarantee they are a 'MAN design'<br />Ztev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-52492601088929615532016-04-27T07:50:37.139+10:002016-04-27T07:50:37.139+10:00Hello Peter, excellent blog, I just came across it...Hello Peter, excellent blog, I just came across it a few days ago. As you know Indian Navy is also looking for new SSKs for the project P-75I. I was wondering what do you think would be a good sub for IN. While some sources do say Soryu is not going to participate, some say India actually never inquired for it. What do you think? Is there a possibility to see Soryu in the competition, or Barracuda SSK type? Thanks in Advance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13270644793144125220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-49581694470867336482016-04-27T03:08:16.661+10:002016-04-27T03:08:16.661+10:00Not to forget the Siemens fuel cells for submarine...Not to forget the Siemens fuel cells for submarines.<br /><br />Therefore it would be interesting to know what DCNS has offered because many features already available for Type 2xy submarines are available for Scorpene submarines only as superb CGIs.MHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-18730502988155699052016-04-27T01:14:39.704+10:002016-04-27T01:14:39.704+10:00Unreliability of diesel engines being driven hard?...Unreliability of diesel engines being driven hard? That depends on the diesel engine design. I have no off road diesel engine experience, but on road, the old Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engines 71 series and 92 series love to be driven really hard at the governor speed. In a motorhome, you floor them and I love their sounds. They die prematurely if you lug them. <br />In contrast, some of the Caterpillar engines prefer to run at 75%-80%. <br />Those DD 71 and 92 are million mile engines and with a new cam and turbocharger, even 2 strokes can meet Tier 2 California emissions. Even my old 6-71 from the late 1950s can be turbocharged and aftercooled and it still run hard in 2016. For highway applications, the later Detroit Diesel 4 stroke series 60 are excellent. <br />In fact, the MTU 4000 is the birth child of a joint design cooperation between Detroit Diesel and MTU (then belonging to M-B) in 1994.<br /><br />French industrial diesel engines are notoriously bad. Even those in the Leclerc MBT do not last.<br />KQNAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-33991211768392088172016-04-26T21:15:25.443+10:002016-04-26T21:15:25.443+10:00Hi MHalblaub
Third time lucky. I feel sure TKMS ...Hi MHalblaub <br /><br />Third time lucky. I feel sure TKMS will be marketing an SSN or super AIP submarine to Australia in 2065.<br /><br />Meanwhile modified MTU 4000 diesels and Siemens Permasyn motors may be the best on the market...<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-106303769289159722016-04-26T21:08:12.693+10:002016-04-26T21:08:12.693+10:00Hi Xavier of NavyRecognition
Congratulations on F...Hi Xavier of NavyRecognition<br /><br />Congratulations on France's win.<br /><br />Thanks for the PACIFIC 2015 Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlr29PKX8X0. I have now placed it in the article above.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />Pete<br /><br />Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-11572309267187158582016-04-26T20:40:01.760+10:002016-04-26T20:40:01.760+10:00Vive la France!
Escargots are overrated. Solo es ...Vive la France!<br /><br />Escargots are overrated. Solo es la salsa, is what the people south of France say.<br /><br />DCNS will provide us many more nice blogs. Especially then we will see what DCNS has offered and what DCNS is capable to do.<br /><br />I suspect DCNS did a low ball offer. TKMS on the other side may have tried again to persuade RAN to by the right submarine just like last time.<br /><br />We will see how much German content the Shortfin will have.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MHalblaubMHalblaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234020711635190127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-45767672138739195712016-04-26T20:13:03.537+10:002016-04-26T20:13:03.537+10:00A video on the Shortfin Barracuda we recorded duri...A video on the Shortfin Barracuda we recorded during PACIFIC 2015 show back in October<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlr29PKX8X0NavyRecognitionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726624066669027557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19245896.post-77947541736569793342016-04-26T19:47:18.043+10:002016-04-26T19:47:18.043+10:00Thankyou to the person who made a Donation.
You a...Thankyou to the person who made a Donation.<br /><br />You are helping keep Submarine Matters going.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br />PetePetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624742078679760819noreply@blogger.com