Naval News article of August 31, 2020 at https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/08/russias-p-750b-small-attack-submarine-design-by-malakhit-design-bureau-part-1/
raises the curtain on Russia's concept P-70B Serval-class submarine.
It is a 1,400 ton paper-concept submarine with a potentially noisy turbine engine. Often turbine engines use a lot of fuel - potentially limiting the submarine's range,
When/if built it may have MESMA style AIP.
See Navy Recognition for extra details.
raises the curtain on Russia's concept P-70B Serval-class submarine.
It is a 1,400 ton paper-concept submarine with a potentially noisy turbine engine. Often turbine engines use a lot of fuel - potentially limiting the submarine's range,
When/if built it may have MESMA style AIP.
Malakhit Design's diagrams of P-750B Concept Submarine (above & below) courtesy Naval News.
See Navy Recognition for extra details.
10 comments:
Hi Pete
Gas turbine is used for P-750B. In Russia, Rubin and Malakhit develop different AIP, respectively. Rubin’s AIP will be used for Kalina class and Malakhit’s AIP uses gas turbine.
https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA11/
“According to the developers, the installation allows the use of the submarine (P-750B) in all modes of surface and underwater navigation with a smooth transition of the main gas turbine engine from the mode of operation from atmospheric air to the mode of operation in a closed cycle and vice versa. The closed cycle uses a heavy artificial gas mixture.”
Regards
Hi Anonymous
It is still difficult to understand how the P-750B's (not operationally tested) turbine and AIP functions.
A turbine engine's noise and range efficiency are still big questions given the turbine engine has not been used operationally on a Russian submarine.
Pete
Hi Pete
Budget allocation for submarine R&D in Russia might affect development of AIP. If there are two proposals by different research institute for one R&D project and the supervisory authority of R&D wants to satisfy the two proposals from various reasons under the eye of Board of Audit. Because BoA does not understand technology at all, the supervisory authority will say that non gas turbine AIP is silent but powerless, gas turbine AIP is a bit noisy but powerful, and the two proposals are needed to reduce indiscretion ratio of submarine.
Regards
Hi Anonymous [September 2, 2020 at 6:53 PM]
I don't think a powerful gas turbine engine (running noisily and hot) would be a viable component of a genuine AIP system. The Russians have been talking AIP breakthrough for 20 years - without verifiable progress.
Russia has always seemed to have lacked the money to finance its nuclear submarine top priority AND upgrade from non-AIP Kilo SSKs to AIP Lada/Amur or Kalina classes.
Russia has found it far earsier just mass produce Kilos for its own navy and export market.
Russia pursuing 2 new SSK programs (with 2 types of AIP) sounds just like a public relations exercise (hence this widely touted concept submarine: "P-750B")
and/or
a way to attract more project finance from the Russian Government and from prospective export customers (like China for example).
Regards
Pete
Gas turbines are going to need a lot more overhaul than the trusty diesel engines. I wonder how are they going to do this in a submarine.
KQN
Hi KQN [September 4, 2020 at 3:30 PM]
The Russians have provided insufficient details to prove a whole new turbine engine for submarine claim.
I wonder if this Russian talk of "turbine engines' is just an attention getting advertizement for quite ordinary TURBO CHARGED DIESEL ENGINES?
Pete
If we look at jet engines, Russian jet engines have much shorter time between overhaul than comparable Western turbofans.
Pete, I agree that this is likely just a spin. After the Kilo series, Russians are at loss as to what to do with their SSK evolution. Besides, they barely have sufficient funds to invest into SSBN/SSGN/SSN.
KQN
Hi KQN [your September 8, 2020 at 2:47 AM]
Yes. I wonder whether Russia now (like France decades ago (for France's first generation MESMA AIP utilised its nuclear know-how "heat up water to convert into expanding steam to drive a turbine") is trying to cut corners for AIP. France has a better 2nd/3rd generation AIP in the works.
So Russia's vaunted AIP + "Turbine" may be a steam rotated turbine with some benefits but also moving/rotating parts, with considerable heat and noise.
Regards
Pete
the concept of a 'turbine' in conjunction with AIP sounds quite 'galah' to me and the submarine might sound under water like one too. Plus as KQN has rightly pointed out, the ongoing maintenance of an unlikely SSK 'turbine' could be highly problematic too (leaving aside the 'noise' bit)
The MESMA generates heat and is a bit noisy (apparently Indian P-8s were able to sniff out the n-tipped SLCM bearing PNS Saad in the aftermath of Balakot despite pretending and doing boohoohoo about taking 21 days etc. in public briefings)
Currently, only the PEMFC has proven its worth while DCNS FC-2G looks promising too.
I think it is more realistic to assume, India's PAFC AIP might see service by 2024-25 compared to the Rubin bureau's Kristall-27E Diesel reformer based AIP.
Hi GhalibKabir
@September 23, 2020 at 8:29 PM
I would guess that the first customer that adopts this Russian "turbine" AIP will find itself an unwitting AIP partner in an expensive multi-year development of said AIP.
So are you saying:
"apparently Indian P-8s were able to sniff out the [Babur?] n-tipped SLCM bearing PNS Saad [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Saad] in the aftermath of Balakot [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Balakot_airstrike crisis] despite pretending and doing boohoohoo about taking 21 days etc. in public briefings)"
All sounds dangerous if ever India attempted to sink a Pak SSK armed with nuclear tipped Baburs.
The risks including Pak navy-strategic forces regulations or PNS Saad Captain's discretion may be to use/launch the Baburs rather than lose them to Indian ASW action!
Pete
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