November 30, 2014

Combat System for Australia's Future Submarine?

Some of the components of the Collins US made AN/BYG-1 Combat System. The AN/BYG-1 will very likely be integrated into Australia's Future Submarine.
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Much information and many links have been kindly provided by MHalblaub. 

combat system is a system of sensors (SONAR, electronic warfare, air-surface detection, navigation systems, communications) databases, for decision making, close-in steering and targeting. The combat system interacts with and includes all of a submarine's weapons.

The most likely combat system Australia will choose:

the evolved GENERAL DYNAMICS AN/BYG-1 Tactical Control System (TCS). As well as General Dynamics (another website)  Raytheon and Lockheed Martin are systems integrators for AN/BYG-1 - making the AN/BYG-1 even more of a multi-corporate responsibility proposition than SUBTICS.  

Australia is very accustomed to the AN/BYG-1 and the US and Australia are constantly refining it. The AN/BYG-1 is apparently used on all US SSNs (Seawolf Class with AN/BYG-2 upgrade) and SSGNs as well as SSKs from:

Spain (S-80)
Brazil (Tupi Class (Type 209))
Canada (Victoria Class)



The AN/BYG-1 is closely integrated with the Collins weapons including the American made Mk 48 torpedoes, Harpoon missiles. The Collins is (US Tomahawk SLCM capable. The mines are UK made.

The AN/BYG-1 is designed to work closely with the SeaWeb surveillance system.  For possible positions of the SeaWeb as it covers East Asia see Submarine Matter's How to Trap the Chinese Dragon - SeaWeb's Fixed Undersea Array, September 4, 2015.

SOURCES POINTING AT PREFERENCE FOR US

It is widely believed that (around 2000?) the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) and Submarine Capability Team recommended the RAN acquire the ISUS 90 system. However the Australian Cabinet favoured US systems.

See  http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/a-new-australian-submarine-with-aip.html In October 2009 Australia's then Minister of Defence Material Greg Combet, speaking still current RAN views, indicated  that the US would play a big part in developing Australia's future submarine. The Sydney Morning Herald recorded what Mr Combet said on October 6, 2009. http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/us-to-play-key-role-in-new-aussie-subs-20091006-gky2.html: "US 'to play key role' in new Aussie subs" October 6, 2009...
"Australia wants the assistance of the United States as it looks to replace the Collins class submarines, junior defence minister Greg Combet says.
"...I expect that Australia will look to learn from companies like General Dynamics Electric Boat and Lockheed Martin in designing and developing the Collins class replacement," he said in a statement.
"...US technology is likely to be an important facilitator of this capability," he said.

See http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/australias-future-submarine-selection-s.html of 20 January 2014 Prime Minister, Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – 2013 Defence White Paper: The Future Submarine Program 3 May 2013 http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2013/05/03/prime-minister-minister-for-defence-and-minister-for-defence-materiel-joint-media-release-2013-defence-white-paper-the-future-submarine-program-2/
"...The Government has also taken the important decision to use the United States AN/BYG-1 combat system as the reference system for future design work.  The early definition of a combat system is a feature of a successful submarine program.  It allows the submarine design to proceed utilising more accurate projections of space, weight and power requirements."

Also see  SEA 1439 PHASE 4A - COLLINS CLASS REPLACEMENT COMBAT SYSTEM http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/msd/sea1439/index.cfm concerning an upgrade process of the AN/BYG-1 combat system conducted jointly by the US and Australia up to 2019 “in conjunction with the Replacement [amounting to upgrades of the US Mk 48] Heavyweight Torpedo (Project SEA 1429)” which points to future integration with US weapons.

- Some 2011 US RAND Corporation studies http://www.rand.org/topics/submarines.html concerning Australian submarine issues needs to be added.

An excellent source on Combat Systems generally and by system-maker is Norman Friedman The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems 5th edn, 2006, pp. 133-156, text online

Germany's TKMS-HDW also has experience in integrating the AN/BYG-1 with Brazil's Type 209 submarines to take the US Mark 48 torpedo and US Harpoon missile. Therefore HDW should have no problem integrating AN/BYG-1.  German designed submarines are compatible with the US submarine Harpoon missile in several countries (South Korea (in Australia’s region) Greece, Turkey, and Israel). 

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Other Combat Systems less likely to be chosen:


Components of the ATLAS ELEKTRONIK's 
 Integrated Sensor Underwater System - ISUS 90 (or the more advanced ISUS 2000) one likely contender for Australia's Future Submarine
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- the ATLAS ELEKTRONIK ISUS 90 (or the more advanced ISUS 2000) with ATLAS is owned by ThyssenKrupp and Airbus DSThyssenKrupp owns Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) the world's largest conventional submarine builder. The prospect of the one major company, TKMS, through HDW and Atlas offering the submarine and combat system (respectively) to Australia makes sense. ISUS means Integrated Sensor Underwater System

ATLAS ELEKTRONIK's ISUS 90 sales statement http://www.atlas-elektronik.com/what-we-do/submarine-systems/isus90-combat-system/ includes:

"ATLAS ELEKTRONIK is the undisputed technology and world market leader in command and weapon control systems for non-nuclear submarines. Our “Integrated Sensor Underwater System” (ISUS) is based on many years of experience, is tried and tested, is always at the latest technological level and, thanks to its modular structure and open system architecture, can easily be adapted to suit individual customer requirements and diverse operational scenarios. It enables the submarine crew to fully perceive their surroundings and to analyse the situation in detail, permitting a rapid and reliable response...The quality, reliability and performance of this system is unparalleled worldwide. And this technology lead is highly valued by our clients: ISUS is well-established at more than ten navies around the globe; our sonar systems are in service with over two dozen navies."

The ISUS 90 is on many of HDW's all export Type 209 and 214 submarines

For more ISUS 90 details see http://www.defencereviewasia.com/articles/43/ISUS-90-Powers-Ahead
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A dramatised (eg. periscope raised) animation of an attack using DCNS SUBTICS Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System.


- SUBTICS or Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System, offered by DCNS. System developed by Thales Underwater Systems-naval submarine division (Thales owns 25% of DCNS) and UDS Internatonal (all very complex and mixed up French corporate and government share holding-ownership - beyond comprehension). SUBTICS varies according to performances and integration level, in utilising sensors and weapons. It is used on all French Navy SSNs and SSBNs and has been chosen to equip next SSN generation Barracuda. 

On export markets, it is selected to equip every new submarines of Agosta, Scorpene and Andrasta types and to modernize submarines such as the Type 209. 
  • Submarines are increasingly faced with various missions including littoral and blue-water operations, stand-alone missions or within a naval force. SUBTICS indicates it can offer:
  • Efficient acoustic sensors including low frequency arrays and scalable data processing offering outstanding detection abilities of distant targets at high speed; 
  • Efficient non acoustic sensors on the surface and at periscope depth offering a high level of discretion; 
  • Communication facilities (from VLF to SHF), noiseless and fully integrated allowing submarine to interact in real time within a force;
  • Data synthesis from every sensors (optical, optronic, R-ESM and C-ESM, radar);
  • Advanced, automatic and interactive target motion analysis Tracks identification and classification functionality;
  • Track fusion and association through an interactive track management tool; 
  • Tactical, command and engagement aids with regard to geographical and tactical environment 
  • Tactical Data Links operation; and
  • Fire and weapon control Torpedoes : F17, SUT 266, TP617, Black Shark, F21 Missiles : SM39 and land-attack capability
SUBTICS provides systems for more than "40" vessels from 9 different Navies (including France).
  • Brazil (4 Scorpene being built) 1 SSN (to be built)
  • Chile (2 Scorpene, 2 Type 209)
  • Ecuador (2 Type 209)
  • India, (in the 4 Type 209 “Shishumar” class?)
  • Malaysia (2 Scorpene)
  • Pakistan (Agosta 90B, Khalid Classes),
  • Singapore (4 Challenger, 2 Archer Class) Type 218SG will not be using the French SUBTICS - instead using an Atlas Elektronik and ST Electronics designed system.
  • Venezuela (2 unserviceable Type 209)

CONCLUSION


Australia is very accustomed to the US AN/BYG-1 and several conventional submarine companies have experience in integrating the AN/BYG-1 with conventional submarines. Also the US is Australia's most important ally.

The extent that Japan may also draw on US combat system technology is unknown but an indicator  Japan may use something like the US combat sytstem comes from the weapons the Soryu is known to use. The Soryu uses a heavy weight torpedo thought to be very similar to the Mark 48 used by the US and Australia. The Soryu uses the US Harpoon short-medium range cruise missile and Japan is probably in early talks with the US concerning the longer range Tomahawk cruise missile (a missile Australia also wishes to acquire).

Pete

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

I just can’t see the need for big US influence. The systems needed to talk to the US and others via AUSCANNZUKUS communication protocols are just outside the red dashed line on the first picture showing the “Collins Replacement Combat System”. They are not part of the AN/BYG-1/2.

General Dynamics may not like to tell that but SeaWeb or something else won’t be implemented in the AN/BYG-1/2 system because then GD can’t sell the system to e.g. Spain or Brazil. SeaWeb or anything else is just an add on system that will work with any other submarine command and control system.

So there is no need for a complete US system. There is just the need for a relative small US subsystem.

Mr. Combet likes to joke:
“I expect that Australia will look to learn from companies like General Dynamics Electric Boat and Lockheed Martin in designing and developing the Collins class replacement.”
Wasn’t that the idea for Collins class? BTW, South Korea does export submarines today and ROK Navy fired a Harpoon missile at RIMPAC years before Australia.

To use the AN/BYG-1/2 is only a political decision. For sure any submarine company can implement this system on a submarine size of Collins class. The difference will be the knowledge how to do it. Who has the best knowledge, Kockums, DCNS or TKMS? Problems could lead to extreme delays which could more than double the price for the submarines (I also count the additional years for maintenance of the old Collins-class submarines…).


Well, it’s time for sin (according to one pope): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36272111/Ocho/Schneeball%202011/P1040673.mp4

Regards,
MHalblaub

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Australia is very accustomed to the AN/BYG-1 and HDW has experience in integrating the AN/BYG-1 with Brazil's HDW 209 submarines. Therefore HDW should have no problem integrating AN/BYG-1 into the 216-218 solution for Australia's future submarine.

Also the US is Australia's most important ally. So why not chose the AN/BYG-1 (or its 2025 development) as the combat system?

Regards

Pete

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

I forgot to thank you for
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36272111/Ocho/Schneeball%202011/P1040673.mp4

Here is my offering - with a Rio beat - "Mas Que Nada" starring Black-Eyed Peas and Sergio Mendes:

http://youtu.be/vQ-NGNCRFmY

Cheers

Pete

Anonymous said...

News of the submarine day:
http://sundodgers.com/2014/06/30/thyssenkrupp-agrees-sale-of-swedish-submarine-shipyard-to-saab/

http://www.welt.de/newsticker/bloomberg/article129607351/ThyssenKrupp-verkauft-die-schwedische-Schiffbautochter-an-Saab.html

The first batch of Type 212 submarines have a Kongsberg-MSI-90U while the second batch have a Atlas Elektroniks combat system. The Kongsberg system was used due to contra-trade obligations with Norway. TKMS will fit any system inside as long as they will get paid.

It is also possible to use multiple types of torpedoes.

According to my knowledge the DM2A4 has the best sonar system with an wide angle array available for torpedoes with an extreme long fiber optic cable. Due to the bandwidth of optical transmissions the torpedo works as an additional sonar sensor for the submarine!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kYj4KUF0vE&feature=youtu.be&t=4m52s

MK 48 torpedoes have a problem at great depths due to their propulsion system. The exhaust must work against the outside pressure. The more outside pressure the less efficient is the motor. A battery powered vehicle works at any depth as long as it withstands the pressure.

The Australians are used to the AN/BYG-1? So what? I guess they get used to a better system very easily. According to Collins-class development the STN Atlas ISUS 90-55 was better than comparable systems on US submarines...

Can LM integrate an "air torpedo" in the AN/BYG-1.
http://www.diehl.com/en/diehl-defence/products/guided-missiles/idas.html

Australia should follow a simple path. Buy the best parts from all over the world.
- MTU engines made in China
- French wine for the captain
- Spanish jamón de serrano for the first officer
- German beer for the crew
(Beer was always allowed on German submarines!)

There are even occasions then this is celebrated like a ritual:
- Einlaufbier: "enter port beer" after a successful mission
- Auslaufbier: "leaving port beer" before entering the submarine
- Grundbier: "seabed beer", submarine is laying on the seabed an waiting.

At this occasions the captain pays the beer. Therefore it is better to have small crews;-)


Algeria was tough. On Friday we will see how tough the former occupiers are.

Regards,
MHalblaub

Anonymous said...

I'm sure you are aware of this but the Kockums deal is now complete.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Saab/Newsroom/Press-releases--News/2014---6/Saab-acquires-ThyssenKrupp-Marine-Systems-AB/#.U7LSV_l_vXA

Anonymous said...

Something about submarines from down under elsewhere:
http://www.aafonline.co.za/news/south-africa%E2%80%99s-submarines-%E2%80%93-update

The last paragraph is interesting:
Critics might be surprised to learn that the South African submarine service has attained a much higher degree of operational readiness than the Royal Navy’s Astute class, one of which was severely damaged in a recent grounding, the Canadian – British built Victoria class, one of which suffered a very serious loss of life with a recent on board conflagration, and the Australian Collins class, which have been battling to achieve full operational capability since the 1990s.

Regards,
MHalblaub

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Thanks for your comments.

I've decided to split my post on German Submarine Developments into:

- German submarines serving with the German Navy - post-war to Type 212,

and

- German Submarine Exports including foreign assembly of German submarines - with http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/german-submarine-import-and-export-behavior/ looking useful

All your comments are playing a part - persuading me to revise my ideas about combat systems, particularly Atlas - with Australia perhaps learning from Singapore 218-Atlas integration experience

Can't wait for Germany vs France game.

I've also been watching Wimbledon with Kyrgios a new national hero and I see Lisicki might end up playing Kerber in a Women's Semi Final :)

Cheers

Pete

Anonymous said...

Dear Pete,

less 9 hours left until the football game starts. I'll meet with some friends at a market square with a real big screen. The German women already left Wimbledon.

Until then some infos about subs I found on the net.

US to Sell India Submarine-Launched Harpoon Missiles
http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/us-to-sell-india-submarine-launched-missiles/
"The press release went on to say that India’s Navy would use the new missiles on its Shishumar class submarine (Type-209)."

Something about the many small things you need to build a submarine:
"LED submarine lighting"/"LED emergency divers light"
http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/electronic/linksrechts/

Back to submarine systems

The main task for a submarine is still to sink as many ships as possible without being detected. The next task is intelligence gathering (therefore a smaller submarine would be better).

Many rather small things make the big difference:
http://www.gabler-maschinenbau.de/files/callisto.pdf (Link 22!)
http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl-defence/user_upload/flyer/IDAS_07_2008.pdf (Chinese Type 52/52 come with an ASW helicopter.)
The smart thing about the IDAS missile is the fibre-optical data link. It is the same fibre wire like the DM2A4 uses.

For sure GE could fit these functions inside the AN/BYG-1/2 but Australia will have to pay for this.

Regards,
MHalblaub

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Mein Geld ist auf der deutschen Mannschaft.

And thanks for the submarine details. I'll place them in the 3 submarine articles I'm writing-updating :)

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

I lost my money on Spain :-(
Germany vs. France is to close to bet.

The French Franck Ribéry plays for Bayern München just like half of the German team... So the French know much about the German team. On the other side 3 German players play with forward Olivier Giroud at Arsenal.

Just 4 hours left...

Anonymous said...

I missed a small item due to football... An item missing to many submarines since Word War 2.

http://www.gabler-maschinenbau.de/maschinenbau/en/entwicklungen/eigenschutz/index.html

A small canon!
RMK-30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_RMK30

Dare to hit a RHIB with a torpedo? A waste of money. Support your special OPs team at shore with a torpedo? Well, that worked in "Operation Petticoat". Stop a ship of illegal immigrants by an torpedo - no way. A shot across the bows works fine.

Anonymous said...

Hey pete could you do a comparison of most combat systems currently in use
aka subtics, AN/BYG-1,isus 90, Litiy and common core combat system
cheers
Harish

Anonymous said...

Hello Pete,

I realized something interesting for e.g. the Virginia-class:
- GE does provide the AN/BYG 1.
- Mark 48 torpedoes are provided by Hughes Aircraft
- Bow sonar BQQ-10 is provided by Lockheed Martin
...
For the surface fleet it looks quite the same.

Type 212 second batch:
- Combat system by Atlas Elektronik
- Torpedoes by Atlas Elektronik
- Sonar sensors by Atlas Elektronik
- Torpedo jammer by Atlas Elektronik
- UUV by Atlas Elektronik
- ...

Surface combatants:
- Combat systems by Atlas Elektronik
- Sonar systems by Atlas Elektronik
- Diver detection system by Atlas Elektronik
- ...

On company with just 1,500 employees but specialist on their field.

Management overhead is expensive and will be paid by Australian taxpayers.

A general contractor is the best solution for SEA 1000 but a general contractor owned by Australian government is the worst solution. You can only put financial pressure on a private owned company.

Btw: http://www.sonartech.atlas-elektronik.com/company-info/ (Australia)

Regards,
MHalblaub

Anonymous said...

Dear Pete,
something more to read about the CSU 90 sonar system:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSU_90

Regards,
MHalblaub

Pete said...

Hi Harish

No time or desire to do all Combat Systems but I'll do the SUBTICS in some detail as is fitted on an actual Scorpene contender for Australia's future submarine.

Litiy? (Australia wouldn't buy Russian).

Common Core Combat System (Australia might be silly enough to buy a UK system - but hopefully not).

Regards

Pete

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Thanks for your comments.

Re your July 1, 2014 at 11:29 PM comment:

- I don't know how likely Australia would use non-US weapons systems - Australia could shift its existing MK 48s and Harpoons into the future subs.

- Don’t know whether LM can “integrate an "air torpedo" in the AN/BYG-1.”

- “MTU engines made in China” risky. MTUs or MANs made in Japan or Germany best.
Your July 2, 2014 at 5:18 PM comment:

- “Critics might be surprised to learn that the South African submarine service has attained a much higher degree of operational readiness than the Royal Navy’s Astute class…the Canadian – British built Victoria class, …and the Australian Collins class, …”
It looks like an odd nationalist South African joke. Maybe Iran’s mini-subs are more reliable than all!

Your July 4, 2014 at 5:36 PM comment:

- "LEDs for subs and divers makes electricity saving sense http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/electronic/linksrechts/

- http://www.gabler-maschinenbau.de/files/callisto.pdf looks interesting - though when the float antenna is transmitting may be insecure

- The IDAS missile looks especially interesting for anti-ship, anti-aircraft. However its land attack range (20km) is very limited. IDAS may fill roles if Australia were to phase out Harpoons and rely on Tomahawks for long range land attack.

Your July 4, 2014 at 10:27 PM comment:

- Every home should have a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_RMK30 :)

Your July 7, 2014 at 7:39 PM comment:

- Yes TKMS (with Atlas Elektronik and HDW) seems to offer the complete submarine solution. If TKMS-HDW can offer a diesel engine for a 4,000 tonne submarine would be even better!

I see Brazil vs Germany playing today – very close odds. I won a small fortune ($10) on Germany v France. Also mein Geld ist auf das deutsche Team noch einmal. :)

Thanks again for all your posts.

Regards

Pete

Pete said...

Hi Harish

An excellent source on Combat Systems generally and by country-producer is Norman Friedman's, The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems, 5th Edition 2006, pp. 133-156. The text is a available at
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4S3h8j_NEmkC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=singapore+submarines+subtics&source=bl&ots=hJRuPWW2fX&sig=0ABfSPyPflDtSjNh9FkzyE05v4A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RUW7U7qzCYfwkgWx84CAAg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20submarines%20subtics&f=false

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi pete,
thanks a ton just looked at its price on Amazon, at 230 usd it is a little pricey, Am sticking to the google link. thank you for the same
Harish

Anonymous said...

I hope Brazil will be as good as a host nation as Germany was in 2006 ;-)

Game starts at 22:00 German local time!

To use the time properly:
http://www.gabler-maschinenbau.de/files/triple_m.pdf

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/10/german_submarine_uav/

Nice thing to have for specials OPs;-) like divers to have an overview in advance and during the mission.

Regards,
MHalblaub

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Thanks for http://www.gabler-maschinenbau.de/files/triple_m.pdf . I'll tie the RMK 30mm to my chimney to try it out.

Game starts 6am Australian time. Quite early. I'll collect my winnings when I wake up :)

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

http://youtu.be/RLZUKqpXYzU

Something beside 1:7

China seems a little bit angry about Australian and Japanese submarine contacts:
http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_Wire/2014-07/08/content_32893362.htm

I also find an interesting point at RIMPAC2014
http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurerimpac-2014-participating-vessels-by-country-4312822/

Australia:
- HMAS Sheean (SSG 77) - Collins - Class Submarine
- HMAS Success (OR 304) - Durance Class Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment (AOR)

Republic of Korea:
- ROKS Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong (DDG 993) - Sejong the Great Class Destroyer
- ROKS Wang Geon (DDH 978) - Chungmugong Yi Sunshin Class Destroyer
- Chang Bogo Class Submarine

no "Son Won-il" class but also no auxiliary ship.

Regards,
MHalblaub

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/world-cup/one-paddy-power-punter-correctly-predicted-71-obliteration-in-brazilgermany-semi-30417105.html

Pete said...

Hi MHalblaub

Poor humiliated Brazilians. I hear Germany celebrated quietly http://youtu.be/L3g2Ru_-9AA !!

Yes China does not want to be surrounded by outer barbarians in subs.

Looking at RIMPAC2014
http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurerimpac-2014-participating-vessels-by-country-4312822/

One can only conclude that Australia’s submarines need to be Replenished with a lot of beer.

Japan’s Hyuga Class Helicopter Destroyer http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hyuga-class/ looks a bit large. I can’t wait for Japan’s Yamato Class Helicopter Battleship.

My money is still on Germany but don't get Argentina mad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nuclear_weapons .

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Dear Pete,

here is the official result forcast by FIFA for the final:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255959/match=300186501/index.html#nosticky

;-)

Pete said...

Thanks MHalblaub

For the FIFA forecast.

Germany will surely win, of course.

Cheers

Pete